SPEAKER_01 0:33

Welcome to the Better Two Podcast. I'm your host, Donna. Today's guest is friend of the show, Tracy Bonham. Tracy's coming back to talk about her new album, Lift, which, well, we talked about a song, her biggest hit, Mother Mother, in the very first episode we ever taped. And to celebrate the 30th anniversary, she has retooled that song, as well as several others. So we talk about that. We talk about perfection. We talk about getting in our own way at times. We talk about age and so much more. So tune in. Hi Tracy, how are you doing? Great. How are you doing? I'm doing good. And welcome back. This is the third time you're here, which I that's right. Three. Here's the irony. Here is the irony. When when I first started talking to you, one thing we talked about briefly was Mother Mother. And here we are, full circle. No, no, no, no. Because you were even like, well, you didn't really focus on that, where a lot of people do, but now here we are, and you're celebrating the anniversary of it. Correct. And so I guess my question is because you're going back to the whole album. How hard was it to look at that with a different set of eyes? I mean, I know you sang it through all this time. Right. But going back to the actual music and playing with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Well, yeah, it's been quite a uh an experience. Uh originally I thought, I'm just gonna make string quartet versions of these songs, including Mother and Mother, and it's just gonna be for fans. It'll be like these rarities, you know, and I'll just sell them at shows. And and so I did go into the studio with string quartet, and we started, and you know, I just couldn't help myself. Call up a drummer, call up a guitar, call up a bass, and all of a sudden, boom, we've got this fully fleshed out album with strings. Um so it's been, you know, working with Ken Rich at Grand Street uh Studios too in Brooklyn, it's just been a joy. But it's come with a lot of um like excavation of who I was back then and why I wrote those songs, what headspace I was in then, and how I've changed and how I still need to change, and and so revisiting the old narratives and trying to dispel anything that just doesn't suit me anymore. Kind of the beauty of getting older, right? And and so I get to like lift that's why I'm calling this album Lift, because I'm lifting these burdens, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Well, I mean that's the thing. It's like we mature, but then it's like there's still lessons that we didn't quite get right.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Oh my god, still. There'll be one at the day we're, you know, on our deathbed, there will be some kind of lesson. And that's probably the beauty of life. Of course, we can also like, you know, curse it, but yeah, there's always gonna be a lesson.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

It's and the thing is, you're because sometimes as a writer, I will go back and look at things. I found I was going through a box the other day and I found a journal from like 1990. Oh yes, I was like, I had just gotten with my ex-husband and this this whole life, and it's like, look where you were and look where you are, and look at all the living.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, it's like a time capsule, and I think it's I love that you saved your journals. I also I'm sitting right next to the shelf that has all of my journals from the 80s. My mom saved them in a in a box, you know. And I've got those, those are interesting to me because it's you know, when I was like 14, 15.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I I had I had a notebook that I my senior year in high school that the cover, because you know how they always make pop culture or notebooks, it said my life is a soap opera. And so I was like, this is the perfect book. And I really wish I would have kept it, but it was like as soon as I was done senior year and I had moved on, it was just kind of like I'm I'm destroying this. I don't need this.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Right, right. I mean, that's a beautiful thing too. You know, I did some I tore out pages and burned things that I just didn't want to revisit or I didn't want anyone else to find, mostly.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yeah, I was gonna say, usually that's more, it's usually that.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Um, so there on this record, you did three songs, and I and I want to say I thought the violin was fantastic on Fifty Foot Queenie. Um it was just it was an epic movie-esque type song when I was listening to it. It's like you could just see this woman empowerment, you know, this this badass stepping into her power with this song.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's always been a fun song for me to to cover, PJ Harvey cover, um, and fun to rip on the on the violin. And then as the recording went, you know, and we we got into the production a little bit more, when it started to become like um almost like a marching band sound, that's when it really took off. That's when I was like, oh my god, this thing is huge. It just sounds so cool and big.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And it was, and that's the thing. It's listening to it, like I said, it I could see it up on the big screen. With you know, with with just this empowerment of this woman not taking anybody's bowl. Right. And then but then you kind of switch it to with the the I'm not a waif. And I understand what you were getting at because in the early 90s that was it, everybody had to be a waif. And it's like as much as we got away from that in a roundabout way, we are going back to that that you need to be skinny.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, yeah. It's it's funny, it may not even be um weight, it could be age, you know, like we all do it to ourselves and we all compare ourselves, and I think that's where you know, so much it's just so agonizing, isn't it? Just to to abandon yourself because you view you look at someone and you think they are more attractive, and then for some reason, then it's a a zero-sum game, and then you think that you're less than because they're beautiful, and it's really a mind trip, and we don't need to do it. That's why these songs are really um healing and cathartic for me because it gets me thinking, and it gets me thinking about all the things I'm still carrying with me, and I still worry about my looks and the video that's coming out. Um, you know, there's moments where I'm like, oh god, that wow, you know, I don't I'm not young anymore. And the exercise is to let that go.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Well, and and the thing is, not everybody gets to age. And we are constantly and going through cancer, both of us know this. You know, it's it's when you get that diagnosis, your mind starts going to Am I gonna have another day? What's gonna happen? Yeah, and so when you when you get past that, you start looking at okay, I'm aging, but you know what? I'm me. And the the thing about it is, because I've noticed watching TV as of late, it's like if I watch TV, we have the GLP one ads, we have you don't have a car unless you have a Lexus. And I'm thinking to myself as I'm watching this, going, wait a second. So everything that is being sold to me, whether it be social media or whatever, is all about perfection. The alleged perfection I'm supposed to have. And when you think about it, we've been trained since we were kids. Oh, yeah, to believe into that, to buy into that. You better keep up with the Joneses, otherwise your life sucks.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Right. And once you hit that marker, then you'll be happy. But the marker always moves. And so it's you know, now I feel like I've got a little glimpse into some wisdom to stay away from that and I want to help other people. Like, don't believe it. Don't listen to those voices and don't adopt those voices and make them your own. I mean, it's it's really easy to fall into that.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Oh, yeah. I I mean I look at it as the perfectionism trap because we are trying to be perfect, but there is no perfect.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

I mean, I was very crass. I could be very crass. My husband, my ex-husband once said to me that I didn't have a Playboy kitty. And and I know that's crass, but here's the thing Do they really have a Playboy kitty? Because it was all airbrushed. But at 22 years old, hearing something like that, you're like, Am I not sexy? Am I you immediately start diminishing yourself? And that's the thing. We allow other people to diminish us.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, yeah. We worry too much about the other people's uh uh, you know, opinion of us. And what I've realized is like, first of all, I don't need to get into their heads. It the fact that they're looking at me, the fact that they're not looking at me, it's just not my business. And lately, in the last few years, I've been saying this to myself, and it's really awesome. I just go, this is not I'm not here for you. I'm not this is not a fashion show, and it really helps. I say it to myself, because then I don't worry, you know. I I spent so much time wasted so much time worrying, even walking down the street. If a dude was, you know, turned his face the other direction. I thought it was because I was ugly. I mean, it's that insidious. And think about how many times that happens to us every single day that we do or that to ourselves, and then all of a sudden we have this narrative that we're just not enough. And it's just so sad because it's not even based in reality.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

No, and then I mean for you it has to be even a little harder because you put yourself out on center stage, right? So I mean, the few times I was up on stage as a bass player, when I screwed up the one time, it ate at me. It ate at me. Nobody in my band knew right, I knew. Right, it ate it eats at you because what happened? I was supposed to be perfect.

unknown 10:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

And and like, yeah, nobody noticed the moment left, the moment's not even here anymore. And here you are reliving it, reliving it, trying to sort it out and figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

And I wasn't and I wasn't a drinker, but the the the guy I was dating who also was in the band, he uh was a liquor store manager. So he we went to a bar and he happened to find one of these guys who he worked with during that would a liquor supplier, and he's buying his drinks. I got lit. I had never really got that lit. But hey, you know, I wanted to forget. So maybe it was a good thing I forgot my success in the music industry.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Right, you could have turned to the drink. Yeah, I mean, and and you know, that's probably you know, for a lot of people a reason why they want to escape because they just can't handle the self-flagellation, you know, they want to quiet those voices.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

And you gotta wonder where that starts. I know it starts at home, it starts in school, it starts in religion.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

I mean, there's it piles on. It starts so early. It's like the kernel, I think the little seed that's that's planted. And and you're right, I think you know, we pick it up from our parents, but also uh really TV and now social media. We just start comparing ourselves and and thinking that we need to be more than we are, and everybody is generational, and I just hope that we can break the cycle for you know for some of us. So do I.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

So Mother's Day weekend, you did something that I saw videos for that looked very amazing and very empowering. What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, on Mother's Day, it was so beautiful. I had a bunch of uh women come into the studio where I was making the album, and they helped me sing Mother Mother on the recording, and mostly they screamed, Everything's Fine. Uh, and we videoed uh that and it's going to be in a music video uh coming out in November. And it was just so wonderful because they were so grateful to be there, uh, and they had a lot to scream about. You know, I guess, you know, that's really the thing is that we have a lot to scream about. Yeah. And there was also a 14, uh young, 15-year-old uh daughter there, Maisie, and she also had wonderful things to say, and her scream probably was the best. Um, if I had to, you know, have them compete. But, you know, we also sat around and they all took turns um telling each other and telling me what the song meant to them and what their life was like at that time when they first heard it, what was going on, and that was so moving. Wonderful to hear these incredible women tell their stories. Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

And and to know that you kind of were part of their story.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah. That's that's gotta be an amazing gift for you because it's like as an artist, you create something and you want to connect with the people and so hearing them tell their story for to you. Oh, yeah. Absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

It is amazing. Because a lot of times, you know, you don't really know how things land with people. You know, your fans are kind of out there, but you don't really sometimes, especially nowadays, it's just hard to know where they are, who they are, what they look like, you know, what's their story. So to really have that one-on-one um connection and hear it, it it's just um it makes my my job. I feel like I'm I'm doing the right thing. I feel really validated.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Well, and I think it's also timely that you're releasing, re-releasing this song because how do I say this? Right now we we do tell ourselves a lot, I'm I'm fine, I'm fine, and and I'm not. And we don't we don't have the because of how we live now, we don't have the support necessarily to say, hey, can you are you listening? Because somebody may be on the phone with you and they're scrolling through because they're holding something that's going to entertain them, even though they're supposed to be listening.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Oh, right. Yeah, there's so much distraction. And it's also, yeah, it's kind of what we're talking about before, even it's like people are now trained to not really be real or let the real out, you know, and everything's fine, or this is all smooth, and you know, look at my life over here, you know. Um, but uh what I would rather see is somebody being very real. And, you know, and it's a scary time too. So there's a lot of real, and we're seeing a lot of anger, which anger used to be a thing for me that I was really scared of. My mom used to, um, I mean, my whole family really didn't express it. Um, my mom used to see a strong woman, an outspoken woman, and say, you know, when she left, she'd be like, wow, that woman's odd. And so, yeah, so I grew up with that, not knowing how to express myself, especially speaking up or being angry. Um, so I really appreciate it now. Um, and I also think there's ways to do it in positive ways, like, you know, this, you know, getting together in the studio and screaming and it's cathartic and we talk about it, it's healing. Um, there's also people who just scream or or share their anger just for anger's sake, right? And then like, where does that go? Right? How do we like lift each other up? So, you know, using the everything's fine when it really isn't scream is just a great exercise to get people to really think about you know, expressing what's really not fun.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

One thing I used to love to do was get on a roller coaster. Oh, really? Well, the whole reason is you get on the roller coaster, you can scream your head off and nobody knows.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

That's right. And then you get the picture though at the end.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Well, that was before that, for the most part. But yeah, some of those other ones, yeah. Now when that started happening, it's like, well, you know, maybe you don't want to do that so much.

unknown 16:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Before we before we had the picture, yeah, it was it was much better. Yeah. But I I think I think that's the thing. We we are so focused on trying to make sure everything's fine. My father-in-law, who's past, anytime we went over there, would ask, you know, we'd go, so how's things? Just peachy. As soon as he said just peachy, you knew it wasn't anything but.

unknown 16:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Exactly. It's kind of like I don't get it. It's like they just don't really want to be real, they don't want to, you know, go there. They don't want to, you know, I've I've watched my mother um years and years ago, she didn't want to really get in touch with her feelings at all, you know, and so she would just kind of, you know, do the same thing, kind of save face. But when she was drinking and when we put on some some music that made her, you know, she kind of connected with her sadness, it was deep. And so, you know, she covered it up, she dealt, and I know a lot of people um they do it on big and small levels, you know, they pass each other on the street, oh cool, yeah, I'm fine, you know. It's it's hard to, you know, I think people are just not willing to share uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

And I can't just say it's the older generation, I think it's just how you were raised, whether you're comfortable with it or not. Because my my dad is very much he'll tell me when things are bothering him, but he can't hear. So he texts us, he he texts me. And the interesting thing is when I had cancer, because we weren't estranged for the most part, he started texting me every night. He was always like, How are you doing? Everything was okay. After I got past that, now it's all every day. I'm I just have no purpose. Well, Dad, why don't you try writing down your thoughts? Why don't you try writing your life history? No, I don't want to do that. Oh wow, yeah. Oh god, oh he won't accept help. Uh no, and then you say and then you he starts saying, I feel like I have no purpose. So you have the same conversation, and after about the fifth time, you just stop. Yeah, you just say, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Right. Because if it's no if it's not changing, then we're yeah. Oh, that's that's very deep and interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

And it it's it's one of those things where it's like you've never dealt with your stuff, and you never will. And I know I mean, he's he's gonna be 79 next month, and it's like I still don't know what he wants done when he passes. We have not had that conversation. Oh, really? No, and and I know if I brought it up, oh yeah, yeah, it's a tough one. But I I think I think that's one of those things where it's like, all right, well, whatever happens, happens. I can't do anything. My hand, it's not in my control. And that's the other thing about the perfection beast, is it's attached to guilt, it's attached to control, and these are all the things that we are not comfortable with. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

And fear, yeah, and discomfort. We don't want it, we just want to like hide, you know, escape, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

But I think that's where the power of creativity comes. Because the people that are actually creating, even though we get the we we have all those fear traps, and we have all those traps still, we know that when we create, we're doing something empowering, and we can feel it in our bones.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah, that's really true. It's really a beautiful thing. I think we get taken out of the kind of lower energies of like body, and we're kind of in flow and we're in spirit or whatever, and that's that's really uh when the creative magic starts to happen.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So you say you have a new video, so you're it's gonna be your mother mother, correct?

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Oh well, after mother mother will be when the the album comes out, but the new video will be I'm not a waif, and this is a song that's on the new album. It's uh gonna be on the CD version. Uh the album, you know, can only have so many minutes each side. So anyway, the I'm not a waif is a song that was released in 1995 on Liverpool Sessions, which is my first EP ever. And so the new version is awesome. It's got a string quartet, it's got the rock guitars, it's very punky.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

I was gonna say, yeah, very punk.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

It's very punk sounding. Yeah, yeah. And it's so much fun. And we chose this song to make a video for because it just seems so relevant. You know, again, it's it's a lot about what we're talking about, how um women in particular, not every, you know, just I'm kind of focusing on myself, how we were trained to think we needed to be a wave fin heroin chic or competing with Kate Moss, you know. And uh, you know, and I grew up like I was never overweight. I might have had a little like a couple years where I was like a little chubby, and it I was miserable, and I was obsessively counting calories, wearing saran wrap up uh around my thighs, thinking and then going jogging, like thinking like I would sweat the thigh fat, you know, all the stupid things. Um, eating, you know, only grapefruits all day, and three days I'd starve myself, and then the next three days I would gorge on donuts. The cabbage diet. Oh my god, right? Yeah, all of these crazy things, and we're all just, you know, again, trying to attain some kind of perfection that just isn't there. Um and then on the um in the part of the uh song is Who Cares If I'm hungry, just means like nobody really cares. the th what we do to ourselves to try and fit into the mold of whatever that perfection is, you know, and and I think it's relevant today. You know, I think women's bodies are being used as objects in many ways or treated as such. And nobody really, you know, at least uh I'm gonna say the patriarchy, just doesn't care, doesn't care about our health, health issues. Um and we start to reflect all of that in our body image and what we tell ourselves. And um it's just a vicious cycle, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And if I'm gonna make you feel any better, I talked to a uh guest yesterday who is a model slash actress or was a model. And we talked about how the modeling industry they when you're the model, you're basically a clotheshang. They don't care how they treat you. And yes, they're in your head saying you're fat. You're doing that. So I mean you're you're doing it to yourself, but the people that are presenting this image are getting trauma as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Right. And you can just imagine what's in the head of those beautiful, you know, thin, gorgeous, perfect in our eyes models, they're probably thinking the same thing. And I know body dysmorphia is a huge problem. Also, you know, I did some work with some ballerinas a couple years back when I worked with Eugene Ballet and it was the same thing, you know? They are conditioned to um you know obsess about their weight and also squeeze their feet into these painful shoes. And it's not like you know I don't think they get a lot of like sympathy at all.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

And when here here's a here's a valid question too is like when did when you look at age you look at like watching shows in the eight seventies and eighties and even early nineties and everybody who was in their 50s looked like they were like 70.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

That's so true, right? What happened? I don't know. I mean yeah that's what I think on hair I think it's the the style I think yeah people were more like ladies were mum mumsy back then. Um but also I'm like is it our perspective too like do or do we think we're looking younger than we really do is it gonna be the same thing like when young people see us now they think we look ancient they probably do um I you know a a little a little bit of it is like house in mirrors and stuff but I agree with you I think the you know mid uh life people in those comedy shows were like you know Edith and Archie and you know all they they just look ancient but maybe that's because they all they were also kind of hateful.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Well look at cocoon though the movie cocoon I barely yeah um Wilfred Brindley uh Steve Gutenberg they were all in their 50s 40s and 50s.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Really?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah oh my god it's like no I thought they were like 60 70 and right but you know I'm for me personally I'm gonna be 59 very shortly and it's like I don't when did I get here? Because you're the thing about age is your body is changed but your mind is still going hey I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I'm 30 years old still exactly and then you stop for a minute and go wait when did I get here? Yeah why is it harder to climb these stairs why jumping around with kids why am I winded yeah it's uh it's true same same with me it doesn't and it doesn't matter how physically fit you are I think it's just one of those things where we don't comprehend that we have aged right there's a there's a point where we kind of lock in like I'm 36 in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

So how so since you've gotten older how has touring differed for you?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Well you know I don't go out as long um but there's many reasons why I don't go out uh as long there's it's just a different world um and it's too expensive and all that. Um but you know I do these these brief stints and I stay on people's not on couches. I don't want to stay on couches but I do stay in people's guest rooms and stuff and I'm like okay you know I'm almost 60 and here I am like a vagabond but you know I just decided what at one point to just think really positively about all of this and I'm doing what I love and you know uh it's really worth it it's really worth it and that's that's the gift in itself right there that it's worth it that when you see value and you know that it's worth it yeah that's what's important.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Absolutely and how lucky right to to have that uh at this age or ever you know yeah I mean and the bigger thing is when we we start this is a sad thing though when we start outliving people like I outlived my husband I've passed the age where he died and it's like yeah okay that's freaky and so that's when you start really thinking that every day is a gift so true it really is you never know what's around the corner. No so being a single mom how hard is it now with what's going on in the world?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Well I am a mother to a black boy so it's terrifying and I'm very happy I live in Brooklyn but then again I mean that you know there's no not not like 100% comfort there but um you know it's hard to go on social media and see you know what's happening oh and um I want to be involved I also am so afraid of it consuming me I'm I'm conflicted there um but I know I need to probably be um more outspoken about that and my feelings I just I it's like I almost feel so paralyzed by the fear um it's it's horrifying I mean this world right now and this country right now is absolutely horrifying and I don't understand how it got here. I just feel like it's important to continue to fight the good fight whatever that means you know um and you know lead with love even though it's really hard right because there's so much uh external power out there that's coming at us and making you know getting the airwaves and it's just so full of hate and um fear. It's really just fear and if we can pull back and look at that um you know I just I really do believe there will be a day I I don't know if we will see it in our lifetime unfortunately but we'll plant the seeds now. I do think there will be a day when this external force this big masculine macho energy that we're seeing right now um I think it's I think it's gonna fall. And I think yeah I think that I mean women are getting more and more powerful and outspoken and real and you know I love it so much. Of course it you know it's gonna take a while. Well but I do think it's gonna win.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

I mean I saw this guy yesterday who is has some power and he's talking about how well the we should ban divorce and you should give you wait you should be giving your wife oxytocin so she'll stay with you. Who said that? No oh I can't think of his name he's a tech he's a tech pro but he's got a mullet and some facial hair so that's there you go I mean that sounds like back you know in the early days or even that just sounds medieval even you know it's just hell is wrong. I know it's like I you would never thought in in a million years that we would be here and we would be hearing this and it's like how are you saying that and you're saying it out loud that's even the you're saying this out loud.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Yes and you're given a platform I think that's what's happening now is that the weirder you the weirder it is and the most uh sensational it is you might not even really believe it but if you say something crazy you're gonna get more eyeballs.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Oh yeah and that's a dangerous place. Well you can use the perfect example of that is the trad wife trend oh yeah okay so you're trad wife and you're baking you're taking care of the kids and I was a stay at home mom for a very short time um because I chose to because I was making more by I was making I would have made less I wouldn't have made anything paying for daycare right exactly I know that one so I know you I'm sure you do so it's like okay so you're taking care of the kids you're cooking you're cleaning yet you're on social media yet you're giving TED talks what the on the trad white thing yeah that doesn't work that doesn't it's just they're maybe not TED talks but they're going to I've seen videos and social media and stuff it's like no I know how much time it takes social media to do no uh uh you're it's so you gotta ask who's paying for this great divide between women and men because there's somebody that's lining the pockets anything to divide anything to divide people is just it just creates I don't I don't know a distraction yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah a distraction God and then we have the other distraction and and you as a creative I I have to ask what how do you feel about AI?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Oh you mean I was gonna call it SI for television I'm not even doing it right because oh no we're what are we uh we're the enemy now if we use AI. I'm gonna use AI. Screw that uh how do I feel about it? Okay I have thought that it's a great tool for things but I don't want to rely on it and all that right for art or whatever because that's all I do that's all I know. However it's horrifying because of the data centers it's horrifying that it's be unregulated so um it's drying up towns, communities it's um and it's only just a few years in. It's noise pollution noise pollution anything um it's dangerous. It's it's horrific.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Well in the bigger picture while it can help do things they've shown the studies have shown that it's also making people less I don't want to say dumb but less smart less educated because sure you know I've seen people online going well how did you get along before 2023 without it how could you write an email how could you do how it's like dude we used to write term papers we emails letters what's like what are you talking about? So I evolved uh people I'm sorry and a great a great example of AI screwing something up so this creepy publishing house reached out to me yesterday and I have a book called Give Me All Your Lovin' okay well the email the voicemail translation was hey I'm calling about your body I love it I love it it was supposed to be and when I really listened to it was like I'm calling about your book give me all your loving it was like okay because I'm like who are you and this is just creepy is it I'm calling about your body that is hilarious. Oh yeah I mean there's lots of fun you know we can have a lot of fun with all of that but in the end it's just it is making people less and less well and the internet's basically eating itself at a certain point because if it's just scanning and regurgitating everything. When Dolly Parton died my friend called and I just I just said okay let me google it and see and a the AI prompt which I don't usually Google but I decided I would says no she's alive and I'm oh really because data set had not been updated. Ah so until that is updated we won't know what's true and that's that's the problem it picks up false data and makes it true.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Oh that's horrifying too right yeah so this is actually gonna come out the same day as your record what are you most excited about your record for you know what are you most excited for people to hear okay oh gosh I'm so excited for people to well first of all on the day that it's released I'll have a beautiful release party in New York City um in uh Lower East Side and it'll be a rocking party and I'm so excited it's gonna rock. Um and then what I want people to experience when they when they hear it um I want them to hear you know evolution in you know in as an artist uh performer and music but I want them to kind of dig into the songs of what they mean to them uh especially if there's a person that has been with me for 30 years and do their own self-discovery you know um see how they've grown you know use it as a comparison you know like what was I like in the 90s and what what was I doing when I heard this song and now what does it make me feel where am I now and you know I think it's always good to have these like touchstones and look back and learn about ourselves. There's a couple songs in particular the song The One and the vocal is really powerful um I had a very spiritual experience in the studio singing that vocal and so I do hope that translates because the song is about uh abuse and my abusive boyfriend but what I my intention when singing it was to give other people a voice uh people who don't have a voice uh in those kinds of situations uh so I hope that there's some power in there I hope people feel it like whoever whoever visited me that day I hope they're gonna like touch the the listener and then there's another song in particular that is so drastically different than the rest of the album and also than the original it's called 30 seconds and it's the only piano song on the album and I think it's I think it's stunningly beautiful. So I hope people thank you I hope people spend time with that one like maybe sit down pour a glass of wine and really listen to it. If you could go back and tell yourself that you were do you think do you think yourself would comprehend that you were going to do redo this no because I think and this is another interesting uh what I've been thinking about lately is my younger self what they what she would have thought. So she would have thought that was stupid you know because she'd be like why aren't you writing more new songs? You should be putting out albums every year and it's gonna be new songs they're all going to be amazing they're all gonna be hits you know that because Young Me was judgmental and I was judgmental of others and I was definitely judgmental myself. So Young Me doesn't really like in this situation doesn't have a seat at the table right now because she just wanted to see people fail or something.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

I don't even know I get it I mean and that's the thing it's like when you when I look at like Taylor Swift who has done this you know has re-released herself yeah I I think it's it's not the enough time is not passed. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

And it didn't sorry didn't she do like a re-record that's exactly a replica so that she could not pay the record beautiful ideas a business thing that's so smart and I just can't seem to make myself do it. But yeah it doesn't seem as creative.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah and I mean that's the thing it's like this way you are actually sitting with what you wrote and I mean imagine live there there it's moments where you could actually talk about how it's evolved.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Oh I do I have definitely gotten to storytelling it's really fun to do that in the live show.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

One person I got to see when since we're talking about storytelling is I got to see Shirley McLean.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Oh wow I love her.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

It was a night with Shirley McLean and she sat in a chair and she told story after story and it was absolutely amazing. Really? Mm-hmm that's beautiful don't discount that people sometimes just want to hear your story. Right right I love that especially with the journey that you have been on so is there anything because I know you gotta go shortly is there anything that we haven't talked about this time which by the way I have gotten compliments from people saying they love when you come on the show so thank you of course that's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yay um oh my god my alarm how rude um well see I told you we can just snip that out um is there anything I can't I feel like we covered a lot I think that was a really great interview.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Well I thank you for coming on of course thank you Donna I always like when Tracy comes on the show because we always have a good conversation and I think it's important that you know if you have something whether it be an idea your old journals uh maybe a book you wrote maybe just anything that it can connect you with your journey I think it's kind of important to look at it because you know when we look back we can see how far we've come there used to be a time in my life and I'm gonna be honest I'm recording this like three days before my birthday. So the fact of the matter is I used to sit there before my birthday and this is I think I did this up until like I was 35, 36. For some reason I would always start getting emotional about a month before my birthday and I think now looking back I couldn't explain it then I could not tell you why I would I would write out it in my journal and and just vent and cry and and everything and I couldn't tell you why because as soon as my birthday hit I was fine but now looking back I don't do that. I haven't done it in years but looking back I know why and it was because I had not achieved what I thought I should have achieved. It was all about achieving those moments or those things or that place in life that I was told I should be at you know you're supposed to be happily married you're supposed to have kids you're supposed to do this you're supposed to have a house you're supposed to have a car but what if I didn't want all that what if I had painted this whole ideal of what I thought I should have and I never could attain it. I never got to where I wanted to be but was it really where I needed to be that's the bigger question. I mean we're taught especially as women and that was something I didn't talk to Tracy about but I mean there was a long time that you know when I got married the big question was so when are you gonna have kids? I had two stepkids and as I said on the podcast it was cheaper for me to stay home and be a mom than for me to work and pay for daycare because that was going to eat up all my salary and then some so I was a stay at home mom and when they were both in school then I got a part-time job and then eventually became a disc jockey but it was not where I thought I would be the funny thing is and and I don't really talk about this too much is when I was living in Tradeport I was 19 years old 20 years old somewhere in there and my friend and I were gonna go to Dallas and we were gonna start a band and I've mentioned that but we had gone and got a card a tarot reading this was like the first time I ever got one for myself and I remember asking this woman this you know because I in my mind I'm gonna be the big rock star. And yeah looking back like I said to Tracy today I'm not sure that that would have really been a good fit for me because one screw up and I would have been all over the place. Um but that's another part of the conversation. So anyway it's like I'm sitting there thinking okay all my questions she's laid all this stuff out I'm excited do you have any questions? Sure okay yeah um well I tour the world and she looks at me and she I think she was maybe in her late 20s early 30s somewhere in there and she looks at me and she goes no I'm sorry all I see is you with kids with a kid. I see you with kids and I see you taking care of a kid and I'm just like yeah no that's not gonna happen that's no no way is that gonna happen. You know I'm nah I'm going to Dallas we're gonna start a band yeah fast forward um I think it was couple you know maybe two years later maybe three years later we did move to Dallas I wasn't a band that stopped and I met my ex and oh lo and behold he's got two kids and guess what I'm doing? Taking care of kids not touring the world so you know sometimes our ideals of where we think we're gonna be aren't the same. And I remember being with him and crying early on saying you know I don't want to be with you because I'm scared I'm gonna give up my dream. And I did. But and my I think that my my core self kept telling me these things like, you know, you don't you don't want to stay here. I had all these doubts in this relationship. But it was also the idea of perfection that somebody, you know, that somebody actually loves me and and and I have kids now and I was always terrified of having kids. And I think that's the bigger thing is when you look at that, it kind of makes you go, okay. So now what? So if you can, and this is kind of where I'm going with this, is if you can look back, which I did on the 250th episode. If you can look back and really look at how far you've come, that's what needs to that's where the importance is. It's good to have goals, it's good to have dreams, but it's also good to know where and how you've grown. And if I could go back and and tell my 19-year-old self that, yeah, you're gonna be a rock star, you know, you you you want to be a rock star, it's not gonna happen. But you're gonna write rock star romance novels, you're gonna be able to take those words that you love putting down on paper, and you're actually gonna be able to make a career out of it. Maybe not a big career, but you get to do that. And hey, you're gonna actually be on the radio as a disc jockey. Being able to tell yourself all those things. But then would you appreciate it knowing your path? Or would you be kicking and screaming, going, that's not what I want. So look back. And I know people say, Don't go back there. But the thing is, there's a gift in those lessons, there's a gift in finding that information out. There's a gift in that reflection. So do it. So on that note, I'd like to thank Tracy for coming on the show. I would definitely pick up the record, check it out. Um, as far as her videos, you know, it's when you think about the whole wave thing. Yes, I never I can never be a waif. I was too busty. But yeah, that was kind of forced down our throat. And when you look at it, media forces a lot of stuff on us. So get to a point where you're okay with who you are. As long as you're happy and you're healthy, then do what you gotta do. And don't chase after things you can't fix. Because guess what? You're human, and as we age, our skin changes, our face changes, our body changes. And we just have to accept it sometimes. Because the illusion of perfection is never gonna happen. So, as I was saying, I like to thank Fast Susie for the intro and outro music. As I said, Tracy, you guys, of course, for tuning in and listening, and I thank you for that. And whenever you're listening morning, noon, or night, well, I appreciate it. And I will catch you next time, guys. Bye.