SPEAKER_00 0:33

Welcome to the Better Two Podcast. I'm your host, Donna. Today's guest is Jack Grisham. Jack has a record coming out with Lars Trieshek called The Life Undone. And we talk about that. We also talk about his being an author as well as being a director and a screenwriter. And well, sobriety and so much more. So tune in. Hello, Jack. Go ahead. Do you need a minute? If you need a minute. Oh no, no.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

I was I just come out of the gate talking. It just doesn't stop. I can tell my my my my camera, I got it set up on some, I don't know what it is, but it's set up on some automatic focus thing. So when I lean back, if I lean back, it'll come down on me.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I have an author that I work with. The same thing happened. She's got her camera and it does the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Oh, so crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

So hi. Um we were discussing dolls and everything beforehand. You doing my research and digging, you know, because I'm supposed to talk to you about your music, which I will, but you're also a writer, which, you know, I'm a writer, so this is this will be an awesome conversation. Oh, we we just talk about writing. If you want to just talk about writing, I'm fine with that. Plus, oh, by the way, Lars told me to tell you hi because I talked to you. Oh, good. Um you were also a filmmaker, though. So you have this very diverse and and you ran for office, which which really tickled me kind of because here you are, the punk, running basically as was it a democratic socialist, or just yeah, yeah, it was it.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

I mean, basically, I just ran to talk about the state of health care in our country, especially California. Yeah, it still hasn't changed. Yeah, yeah. And it was funny because at the time that wasn't even a hot issue. That it wasn't even something somebody was dealing with, you know. And uh anyway, it was it was I just told them, look, I just want to bitch about healthcare. I'm not gonna win. It's ridiculous. I I don't favor the recall. I think the recall is ridiculous, but but yeah, somebody said, Hey, you want to do it? You know, it's press. You got a thing out. It's like, yeah, whatever, I'll just talk about healthcare. So it was funny. I got offered a job uh from the guys at CNN, I got for I got offered a job from the guys at Fox. I got off a bunch of job offers. You know, and at the time, Fox wasn't the Fox of today, no matter what, whatever you it was just different, a little different.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

So understand. Well, it it was back when media was still news and it wasn't infotainment where the news has become a lot of information where it's just infotainment, it's not even right based in reality half the time.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, somebody wants to talk about making any significant changes in this country. Well, I could suggest quite a few, and none of them are gonna go down well, though. None of them are going down well. No, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I mean, and the laws have changed. And I remember when I first became an on-air personality, formerly a dish jockey, and I got my card and it was like, okay, these are the three rules. Pay your $25, and that's it, you're a dish jockey. Okay, and one of the rules was you cannot cuss on air. Well, I fucking curse on this show all the time, so there we go. But anyway, at the time, it was funny because it's not proper.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

I get into uh I get into arguments sometimes because I'm also in rec recovery. I've been in recovery for a long time. I've been sober a little over 37 years. So uh I get into it with people all the time because they'll say, Oh, foul language is not a sign of spiritual growth. And I always tell them, look, then don't go to Ireland because they use the F-word like a comma. So just fucking, you know, you're talking to a priest and he's dropping F bombs. You know, it's like, yeah, dude, he's just relaxed. And you go down under you go down to Australia and they're using the C word like a comma. And you know, in the grocery store, it it's you know, it also people are just getting yeah, people get too wound up on the words. And it's funny if you really look at cursing anyway, uh, I'm trying to remember the exact line of scripture, but it's uh let let no unclean word come from your mouth. But they're not talking about a curse because cursing then was different, it's like you were the testicles of a syphilitic goat or whatever the hell that was though their curses. But but what they were talking about is don't say anything that tears someone down, build them up with your words, you know. That's that's really what it's about.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

It's not you know when you look at the word the F word, okay? You know, it technically meant fornication under consent of king.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Well, there it is, sir.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

So I mean, it's like we've made it into something else, but we are digressing. But all of it. Yeah, congratulations on your sobriety because I know that's not an easy task, and and that was something that I saw in your research that you didn't consider yourself an addict because you weren't injecting anything. And you know, my my my father, I consider him a functioning alcoholic. He would deny to to not so much now, but back in the day, but back in the day, his his garage that he owned was known as Don's Garage and Social Club. Because at five o'clock, everybody bring beer and then have a you know, so t tell me you're an alcoholic without telling me you're an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Right, right, exactly. Well, yeah, it's a weird, you know, a lot of people just don't well, I didn't understand it when I wandered in, because my idea of an addict is somebody shooting up somewhere, you know, and my idea of an alcoholic is some drunk, you know, laying in a in a gutter or an alley somewhere. Like I had no idea that it that it didn't have anything to do with the amount you were doing. It was the, you know, is this harming you? Are you continuing to do it even when it's harming you? And then beyond that, can you even see that it's harming you? You know, so uh anyway, it's uh yeah, it's very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Well, but as a younger person, we don't do those things. As a younger person, we we think we're invincible.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Well, and that's you know, it's funny is that uh, so they they talk about like like you hear some, and we don't need to hang on this, but just for a second, you'll hear they'll they'll there's a thing they'll go, well, insanity is repeating the same mistakes, expect different results. No, that's that's not how they put it in the recovery world. The real is they say it's it's a lack of perception. You can't see the truth, even when the facts are laid out in front of you. I'm not fat. These pants are tight. It's like, dude, that's a stretch waistband, bro. You know, I'm not an alcoholic, those cops are pricks. My wife's a bitch, my boss sucks. I you know, I I I'm friends with a lot of new people that come in, you know, mentorship or whatever the hell you want to call it. Friend is the word I like to use. I can't tell you how many of them have bosses that are assholes. I remember my one buddy got fired one more time, and I looked at him, I go, they can't all be assholes, dude. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Well, I I worked I worked in insurance. I worked a nine to five job in insurance, and I worked my way from claims to supervisor. And the very first claim I ever had taught me a very valuable lesson, and it kind of piggybacks on that, which is no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

My the very first claim on my desk, I had a parking lot accident in Minnesota. The guy's back window had snow on it. I said, What happened, sir? He says, I looked to my left, I looked to my right, and I backed up. It's not my fault. Did you clean off the window? Nope. Did you see the other car? Nope. It's not my fault. I said, it is your fault. Well, I want your supervisor. Okay. That claim taught me nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Which is just, and that's that that is a lot of time. That's the key issue a lot with with people in recovery too. The a lack, they don't want to take responsibility for their actions. And and the weird thing is when they do wake up and really realizing that they've harmed people, the life becomes an easier life to live. Because you you take responsibility for your actions, you clean it up, you you know, you go on, you live differently. But anyway, we're not here to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

No, we're not. But I appreciate you you going there because here's the the thing about that is that still kind of created your whole life. I mean, uh between your music and I and I heard, you know, I've listened to your the new record three times, okay? To be fair, I listened to it three times, and uh there is truth in those lyrics, unless you just created it, but there sounded like there was actual truth in life experience in those lyrics. And sometimes having to go through the trial of getting sober and realizing your mistakes, you you uh you grow from that. You can put that in your writing, you can put that in your movie making. It's part of who you are. So I know you know while it's a big milestone and you don't focus on it, it's still part of who you are at your core.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah, so much of it. I mean, that's the way I look at things, and you're right with the lyrics. Uh, there's a lot of songs on there that are basically dealing with it. There's there's even a I even did a uh like a little attack, because sometimes guys, when they get sober a long time, they start uh well, well, they take on air, it's like they got it together, they're happening, you should listen to me. They start playing God, they develop like a God complex. And uh there's a song on the record, it's called Black Ties, and uh a little it's like a little piano piece, and it says, you know, uh, you want to be a drunkard's king, you own the room, your majesty. Like when they walk in, you know, it's like, hey, look, why don't you just put the lamp on the table and let it shine instead of, you know, you're you're it so anyway, yeah, there's a couple a couple blatant shots, you know, because so it's funny because because along with my along with my sobriety of that, there also become comes along the the anarchists from from early punk days. So it's matched with that, you know, no bosses, no rules, no one's in charge, self-res basically responsibility for self, you know, that kind of thing. And uh so you mix those two, and it really gets uh and then I'm an agnostic who studies a lot of scripture, so that gets frightening, also.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So but but that makes you a very diverse and well-rounded person, even because you're able to see multi multi-sides of the coin and of the world, are you not? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

I I mean, but sometimes, you know, what's funny, some sometimes one choice is better. You know, I can just I can just sit there. I remember one time I was listening to this guy give a talk, and uh, and and everything he said was just right on. I mean, it was just bam, bam, bam, bam. And he's a friend of mine, he's a he was a psychologist, and he's a great guy. You know, just everything, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, right on. And and I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe I was here to hear that. And then my other friend, who's the journalist, right? She said, newspaper, she's past now, but uh, she said, I disagree. And her counterpoint was also completely correct.

unknown 12:05

Right on.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Oh my god, can't you just give, you know, I don't want to make up my own mind. Can you just give me one choice, you know? Yes, I want this and that and that, you know, but uh, you know, the world's full of a lot of choices and discernment is something that was not given with uh birth. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Well, and then and then you have the problem now with discernment of what is real and what is AI.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

That's right. What is anything? I I mean, when it really comes down to it, what you know, not and not just AI. I mean, this has been going on, you know, people putting up fronts, doing this stuff, whatever, this you know, disinformation has been happening a long time before AI. AI just makes it look nicer.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

The movie Wag the Dog.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, that was a great movie because of the disinformation and what it showed. And and dare I say, the original matrix. I remember watching the original matrix and going, okay, what if this is all a simulation? It made you think for a moment, even if it was just a brief moment. Yeah. And I think that's that's something where the problem is now, because we do have AI, there's more and more of it. I mean, as a writer, even you as a writer, there's books now competing with your books that were written by a computer that have no passion or drive.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Not great yet. They they they don't do it great. You can hand me. I I remember I remember when Starbucks had uh the vias. I don't know if you remember that. I don't know if you're a Starbucks drinker, but they they used to have this instant coffee, and they said this instant coffee is great, it's great, it's great. And it was pretty good. For instant coffee is pretty good, but I could pick it 100% of the time, right? And I was in there and they're like, no, you can't. I go, yeah, I can, 100% of the time. And I picked it bam, bam, bam, 100% of the time. Now, for the for the person who's not a writer, a AI is doing a great right job writing. But but you get a real author or whatever, and they can just go in a second, they can pull it apart in a second, and just say, no, no, no, no, no. There's a there's a yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

So what made you get into writing?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Uh I'm a slow learner. How about that? I was always a reader. Okay. I was always a reader. I I grew up, you know, we had five kids. There was no I I remember the first time I learned that people had TV shows. I was shocked. Like, like I had I was dating this girl who I later married, and I said, Oh, well, let's, you know, let's go out, you know, I want, let's go down here. And she goes, Well, I can't, because my my show's on. I go, what do you what do you mean your show's on? And she goes, Well, my my show, my my TV show. I'm like, it what you're staying home to watch a TV show? Like, like I just I was so okay, all right. So so I was like shocked, like, what do you mean, a show? What are you talking about? Because I didn't realize that people had shows. I I grew up reading. So, so I was a reader, not a writer. I was a writer when I was a kid. I used to write stories, but when I got older, no, I'm lazy. But I read, read, read a lot. And then I started learning. I I was just saying that I'm I'm a reader. I didn't start writing until 2008. Just never, I I just never really paid attention to it. You know, I I never looked at books, how'd they put this together, how is this, how'd they do this? And uh the first book I wrote, uh, my girlfriend was editing for me. And I and I still have the original. So I would write a chapter, give it to her, and she'd just redline it. She was well educated and she'd redline it, right? And uh, so we get to the end of the book, and it's hardly redlined at all. And I said, Look, you're not doing your job. And she goes, No, you learned how to write. You know, so so you know, but it but it but it's funny how it it it literally like if you held the pages up, it's like shading. It's like dark red all the way to a very light pink almost.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

But you found your passion in this. I mean, so you learned how to write in 2008, so but you've continued on writing, and you just released a book last year.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Yeah, yeah. I um I do like it. I like to write. Uh you know, um I don't know how what to say. I enjoy it. I'm home. I don't always work well with others, I'm very forceful. I I'm a very forceful, opinionated. Uh and here's I don't compromise. I'm not, I will either give in or we'll do it my way. But there I do not compromise. I I refuse uh to compromise. So I have learned to work with people and and say, you know, your idea is better than mine. Let's go with that. I like where you're coming from. You know what? I don't know anything about that, especially in film work. It's like, look, I don't know anything about this. I like what you're doing. You're in charge now. Let's let's go your way, you know. So uh, you know, and I read this great thing, it was this rabbi, and he had two pieces of the law in his pocket, and one said, on the left, it said, you must step forward and lead. And on the on the right, he had a piece that said you must defer to wisdom. And and so I'm I'm good at that. I'm solid at that. You know, I know when actors are good and to let them be good, the same thing with music producers, guitarists, drummers, whoever I work with, I like I like to let them do it. Well, Lars was I may oversee it.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Well, I was gonna say, Lars was really impressed that you, you know, he would create a melody or whatever, and you would have words to it, lyrics to it right off the bat. He was very impressed by that.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah, he was uh yeah, well, he did he it's funny because I do the melodies on the on the one that does the melodies and the lyrics, but Lars would send me a piece, he'd send me like a little musical piece, and then I'd come back, oh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and and the Germans are so blunt. Oh my god, they're just they're just really, you gotta really get a first of all, they don't have a sense of humor like us, they don't understand why we would call a blind, uh, a bold guy curly, but he has no hair at all. Well, this is not to make sense. He's uh he's completely bold. Well, he's curly. This is a dumb thing to say. I they don't get it. So uh, you know, and then they're very blunt because Lars said to me, we're working, and Lars goes, I didn't realize you were as good as you are. He said, What the hell does that mean? Huh? He said he brought that up today.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, what did he say? It's basically that you took it as an insult and it was like it was a compliment.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Right, but it but it's a but it sounds like an insult. Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, it does. I'm not gonna deny it. It just it that's the thing. Inflection is a wonderful thing, and it's the same thing with text. Somebody sends you a text, and there's no yeah, are they mad at me? Are they happy with me? What the hell? You know, there's always that mo moment of trying to decipher.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Right, right. And and but and so so on Zoom, like we're on now, 6,000 miles different, language differences, you know, cultural difference. I mean, you could just go down the list of the differences and then trying to talk and communicate because we wrote the record on Zoom. That's how we wrote the record. He was in Berlin with a guitar, I was here in Huntington Beach with my piano right on my desk here, and this is how we wrote the record. And not only that, there's a three-second delay. I don't know if he mentioned that.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yes, he did. He did. He mentioned the fact that they don't have a B, they have an H. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

That's right. Yeah, so, and then not only not only think of this. So, so okay, A, A, B, C, D, E, E, E, E, E. They all got that sound. So then you're talking like this, and you I go C D. What are you what are you saying, man? Are you saying C? Are you saying B? What the hell are you saying? You know, it's like G? Is it G? And we, you know, we had to come up with words, some of them not nice. He said one of them.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

He said the word for C.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Oh, yeah. So it's like, you know, I I'd be screaming, did you say this? You know, yeah, because I'm also a little high strung. So anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

It's all right. And I mean, the way he he he talked about we talked about you guys meeting and how they kind of all fell into place. And you know, you were kind of somebody he looked up to, so for him to get to work with you was a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Yeah, see, that that's lost on me. Now, see, that's that's completely that's completely out of my translation. That's like him saying, Why are you calling a bald man curly? I just don't see any of that. Like for me.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

I get it. I I think I mean me personally, when somebody tells me I'm good at what I do or this was a I it it's it's foreign to me. I don't understand that. And I think I think maybe as Americans, not all Americans, but some Americans have a problem with accepting compliments because we're not used to it.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, and it and some of it right. And I always tell people, God, I used to give this lecture to my friend. I'd say, look, just say thank you. Say thank you. When someone says something nice, say thank you. You don't need to say, Oh, our guitar, my old guitar player used to do it. Somebody go, Great show, you go, Well, you know, my the the you know, I couldn't, my tuning was messed up on that. I go, look, dude. When you do that, it diminishes them. Just say, thank you, thank you. How nice. I had a great time. Blah, blah, blah. To build them, you know, and uh, but but when Lars says, Hey, it's a it's a big deal working with you, it doesn't seem like it's a big deal to me. It's just there, you know what I mean? Because I don't like for me, as far as I'm concerned, you're only as good as what you're doing right now. All of your past, I mean, I I know guys that live, they basically live on what they've done 40 years ago. It's like, man, do you have no new information, man? Has nothing new been created? It's not you're still living on that, huh? Still squeezing that lemon, huh? So it's so I don't look at anything I've done in the past or anything that Lars might have had admiration for is worthy of admiration, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

But then I have to ask this how long, how long does this record that you've done have for a shelf life? It's done.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

It's done as far as I'm concerned. I told Lars, I said, look, Matt, I'll do some interviews, I'll talk to people, because I like talking to people, right? So I but but it's like I'm already on a movie. I I'm I'm I'm I just started production on a movie. Like right after we wrapped the record up, it's like, okay, now I'm moving to this film. I'm gonna I'm gonna do this.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Well, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna annoy you because you know when I was listening to the record phone call, the song Phone Call fits the book that I'm currently starting to write. So it's like, well, that that could put that on the playlist for the book. But yeah, so inspired me. Yeah, so it inspired me.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

I have playlists for books. I have authors that I've listened. I have I have so when I'm writing, I like that you do playlists because that's what I do. I'll have a playlist, I'll put it on. I'll put uh I'll listen to a movie soundtrack. So one of them that I think is really good. Um it's uh it's um The Road to Perdition. Uh Thomas Newman did the soundtrack, and there's a song called Ghosts.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

And I put it on loop. I just loop it, and it's really, you know, just kind of flow. It's a good feel. It so so yeah, I'll I'll put on music depend on where I am, what I'm writing, what's happening. Uh I used um a lot of jazz for this one book I did. It's uh called Pulse of the World. I I took it back offline. I'm not I gotta I gotta look at it again. I'm not happy with a couple of things, but um, but yeah, I like that you do that. I like I like that you do that.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I I typically write rock star romance stuff, so it's like it has to I have to include a playlist in my books from the reader because it sets the whole vibe, you know. Um, like I wrote a book what was set in the early 80s, and the singer was a big Stevie Nicks fan. So yeah, that playlist was gonna have a lot of Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks, and it it became part of the story. So I I try to incorporate and so when I was listening to phone call, I was like, this is a couple that were together in their 20s and they're trying to reconnect in their 50s, and there was something in that song that spoke to that. So I was like, well, this would definitely be something I could add to the playlist once it's available, because at the time of this taping, it's not, but right, right.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Um but uh but but I like that, and you're completely right on with that. That phone call song, it started basically, it was a my friend laughs. He goes, You know, it's a wedding song, right? You know, it's like something you play at a wedding or whatever, but uh my my wife, so I have a moon here on my face, and my wife has stars on her eyes. So so with the line in the song, it says, uh, you know, with you there beside me, I wake up with the stars against my face. It's you know, it's it's it's my wife, but but we are married, so yeah, but I like the line later on when it said, if not my wife, just lovers, then you know, which because I really like that line. So I thought, okay, well, you know, the first line's for her, the rest for this other person. But go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I was gonna say that was interesting too. Uh I'm glad you stopped on that song because uh the production of the record I think is really important. The the the Germans, uh Kurt Eubelho Ebelhoisa, Ebelhoisa, they wrote it out, they wrote it out for me so I could uh he's such a great producer, and and and Mitchell Wern, who was the engineer, they did such a great job. This is one of those things, if we go back to what I was saying earlier, where you trust someone, you where you say, Hey, you're good, I'm gonna let you be good, I'm gonna sit back. Because I was very controlling, and when we got to that song phone call, it was Kurt's idea to basically pull it apart and lengthen it. So it starts with this note, just it's forever. It's like, you know, and then an organ comes in and that holds, and then the voice comes in, and the voice is really up front, really on the mic, right there. So what he he had done is he had taken that song and then just stretched it, just really created that sense of time, and uh, and I had to trust him. You know, it's like okay, I I trust you. Um let's do it. Let's do it. So uh it's a great song. I I like it. Thank you. I'm I'm glad that you like it. Yeah, and I like that you write and I like that you make playlists.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

You know, it's just like I said, it's it writing music books or books set in the music industry. I need to, you know, keep it real, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah. Why not? Yeah, well, I think of that, it's funny because because I use that same thing in film. So so there's a song, I can't tell you what song it is, but I want to get it. And I actually wrote, I wrote the person that wrote it, but I haven't heard back from them yet. So so maybe it's gonna take it's gonna take somebody much higher than me to reach out to them. But I really want this song. And uh, because it it when I was when I was writing the scene, it was in my head. It just popped up. I thought, okay, what what would this girl because it in the scene, this this kind of hardcore kid is coming home to his wife, and his wife's a Stevie Nicks fan, and a Joni Mitchell fan, and a Carol King fan. So, you know, it's like so the kid comes in and they've been estranged. They're estranged. So that and and you know, it's been real tense, but he's working his way back into the big bed, you know what I'm saying? And he he comes home from work and she's in the house, and the incense is burning, and it's hazy, and she's got the vinyl out all over the place, and she puts on a this record and she drops the needle on this song and she looks at him and holds her arms out. Like, come on, and he's like, Hey, come on, man. And she just goes, just fucking shut up. Just shut up, you know. But uh, but that song is in my head, and I think we gotta get I I don't know what that song's gonna cost, but we gotta get it. And it's not like a really popular song, you know. I mean, the person that wrote it's very popular, but the song itself, I I don't think it's been popular since I don't know when 1977, maybe. And it wasn't that popular then.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

But here's the thing, with a with the older music becoming back in resurgence with TV shows and in cinema, it's a high possibility that they may do it because of the fact that they may want that residuals to start up again.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, well, I think well, this person gets a lot of residuals. They also get I think it's I think I think what's important, I I think uh it might take them reading the scene. There you go, yeah. You know, it's like, hey, look, just read this scene, and I I I want I'm a fan, so I just want you to know how this fits. Because it's right. It's right. It's it's like one of those things where you know, if the movie does well, it's like, you know, it's it's like, you know, what's that song? You know, hey, come and get, you know, the red bone that they used in in that uh guardians of the galaxies, you know what I'm saying? It's like it's one of those. I mean, that it's just something that you would sing over and over again thinking of this, because it it's right.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

So tell me about this movie. I mean, what what made you decide you you've done with the music, I'm going to do this movie. What what is your role in this? Are you the director? Are you the writer? Are you all of these things incorporated?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Writing and directing. I'm staying away from the front of the camera. I'm done. I I'm done being in front. I I just I'm tired of it. But but it was actually pretty funny because uh I had I had written a script, I had written a script, and uh, I sent it to my friend who's a known writer. He's like a, you know, and and he and it was like the first time I I mean I I'd written a short film before, and I directed a short film, and I did I directed the TSOL documentary, blah, blah, blah. But that's not really, you know, working with actors and writing. And uh, I mean, it is and it is and isn't, but not on a uh the level I'm looking at now. But so so I'd written this script and I sent it to my buddy of mine who's like an award, you know, he's won the awards, like he's solid, right? And he writes me back and he said, Jack, your writing's wasted on this. He goes, This isn't a script, it's a novel. So, so I think he thought I understood more about scripts than I did, because I I didn't really understand how to do it. It's it's like I had to teach myself how to do it. And uh, so so when he said that it's really a novel, I went and wrote a novel based on the script I wrote. And then once I had finished the novel, then I went back and wrote a script based on the novel that I wrote that was based on the script. So uh, you know, it just uh, you know, and and then it was the funny thing about it too, is once once I wrote the script, I realized that maybe I needed to change things in this novel to match the script that I just wrote. So, you know, whatever. It's craziness.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Well, I mean, from for me, my background was this is why I leaned toward the entertainment industry in my books, because besides being a dish jockey, I worked in television. I worked as a uh uh uh line producer on a TV show here in Chicago. But that ended up being way more than just being a line producer because it was a low budget thing and I did numerous things. Right. But prior to that, I also did some acting in college and stuff. And one of my acting teachers gave me the best advice, and I use it for writing too, which is to live in the moment. To be really a great writer, you have to be just like an actor, and you have to live in the moment, you have to live in your characters' heads. So doing the directing and doing the writing, you actually have a better connection when you do instruct your actors on what you're seeking because you feel that emotion because you brought those characters to life.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

And also, I think you know, Tennessee Williams once said that all the characters were him. They were all they were all him, you know, and it's the same thing like in this movie. So, so I I was talking to somebody that read it, and and we were discussing that, and I was saying, look, I've lived all these. And and my buddy said, It's in a way, it's almost a strange memoir that's being played out by different characters. Like, like if you took the soul of this person and they just moved them into this situation, they're playing this person's life, but they're all different. I mean, you never get across that across to an audience like they said, okay, you had to explain it. Like, remember the old uh oh, what movie is that? Um, God, is it is it uh The Ten Commandments? I think in the Ten Commandments, the director comes out and gives a speech. He goes, Well, we're going to be seeing is you know, blah, blah, blah. So so, you know, it could be that where it's just, you know, there's a red curtain, a big stage. I come out from behind the curtain, I say, the movie you're about to watch is really about me. This person is me at this period of my life, and this person is me. You might be offended. Please don't be. You know, whatever they have, that'd be funny. That'll be in the director's cut. I'll throw that in the director's cut. People can just go, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 34:22

And then, you know, you you could take it up another level and dress yourself like a professor where you look like you know, totally out of character. You know, just present that way.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Well, I do have my I do have my professor glasses. I have these glasses. There's no there's no glass, they're not real glasses, but sometimes I put them on when I'm talking to people.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Well, and then come out with a pipe, you know, just just although I know you do have an official cigar. That was covered too. We did talk about you and your cigars.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

I don't want to say bribed, but told you to show up because you had a Cuban waiting for you. But you know come over.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

We have some wonderful cigars. We will sit in the backyard and smoke them and discuss what we are doing. Yeah, I was like, yeah, good.

unknown 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Did he tell you what they told me? The German word they told me it's actually pretty funny. Because they all speak English and they're solid. You know, look, you guys come over to my house, we're speaking English. But I go to your house and we're speaking English over there too. So finally I just said, Look, look, it don't speak English, man. Just here's what I want you to do. If you speak English, then I gotta listen to you, and I gotta pretend I care what you're saying, and then I have to throw in some sort of they look at they brought the bluntness out of me. I'll tell you that. I said, then I gotta throw in some comments and engage. I don't want to do that. I first of all, I don't care what you're talking about. I don't want to know. So, how about this? How about you guys just speak German, and I'm gonna sit back here and I'm just gonna pretend I'm on mushrooms listening to you guys go gobbledygook while the music's playing, right? So the producer Kurt was pretty funny, he goes, Okay, okay, this is something that we can do for you. However, you must know a phrase. So when you hear the music we are playing and you say, ouch, ouch, and it hurts so much because we have made such a wrong decision. I need you to look at me and say, the schlimmster. I go, the schlimster? What the hell does that mean? And it means it means that is the absolute worst. The schlimster. So if they're playing a guitar lead, I just look at them and they look at me like, Do you like this lead? I'm like, the schlimster. So it's pretty, pretty funny.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Sounds like you've had a wild time with this record.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Uh well, we were living in the house. I don't know if Lars told you, but we all stayed in the house. It was like a campout. We all there's but we're, you know, we're all, I mean, it's a beautiful house. Let's let's let's not get crazy about it.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

If you if you see the picture of Lars's house, oh I did I did a deep dive on him too, and yes, I saw his house, and it's very nice.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

That's ridiculous. So so it's not like we're living in squaloring, you know what I mean? We're we're having nice breakfast in the morning and they're cooking, and you know, it's it was it was it was very nice, and uh, but it was like a camp out. It it's like we're in a camp out. It was kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

So when do you expect this movie to be finished?

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Well, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I wish I I I got another meeting this this Saturday with these with the producers of it, and uh just you know, and I mean the cool thing is I it it's a drama. It's not it's a drama, it's very like low, you know, this is a sense and sensibility type drama. You know, I mean this is very it's it's a drama. There's a couple flashes of action, but it's basically a relationship study and that. So you know, I I think it it's taking the producers a minute to get their head around the fact that I would do something like this. I think they love the script, so it's just kind of getting their head around it, and um, and so I got another meeting this this weekend over it, just trying to get it trying to get all the logistics, trying to get it straightened out.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

So well, it and it's not easy to get you know to produce something now. It's not easy, especially financially. It's it's a tough time to do it.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Yeah, it's always tough. Well, look at Dustin Hoffman and Tootsie. It's always tough. Remember that movie I just watched that the other day? He goes, he goes, it's always actors who always have to work. You just gotta work anyway. You gotta find a way to do it. And you know, and that and I and for me it's like I if if I was gonna continue making films, I would be making low budget films. You know, quite I I like I like uh I like character studies, I like, I like there's a certain there's a certain uh conflicted, I don't like heroes, I don't like tragedy, I like that midline of just things happen life. It's just anyway.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Well that and that's the thing, you a movie where life happens and it it connects you. I mean, because you can relate to the human facet of it, you can relate to the human story of it, where yeah, heroes are great and Star Wars is great and all that other stuff, and yes, I grew up watching Star Wars and I love it, but it's not got a lot of depth to it.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

No, no, no. The movie I yeah, the movie I like or whatever, you know what I'm saying, is is whatever. Like, like, you know, I would like the movie before he found Obi-Wan in the desert. I'd like to find the movie of what he was doing for the 20 years he was out there all alone. You know, now that's the movie I want to see, you know. That that, but you know, a lot of times, especially now in this climate, they don't make a lot of movies like that anymore. But every once in a while, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

And and that's you know, the fun the funny thing, like when I uh was doing the TV show, my whole path on that was I auditioned in the back of I think the observer or whatever the reader, one of the two that they have here in Chicago, and it was for a Marilyn Monroe-esque hostess for a cooking show. Okay, so I go, and yes, I did the audition, and I ended up getting the part. The part was for the the technical role was an ex-porn star alcoholic who's gonna be TV host for this erotic baking show. Okay, I get the part, and I'm just this is financial how you you were talking. So we have a firefighter and the wife of somebody who owns a hockey team here in Chicago. Okay, fine. They're producing, okay, fine. I get the part. He goes to a fire, he has a brick wall fall on him, and he dies. Oh shit. Yeah so production is done. Okay, production comes back. Now we we're the the producer has decided that she wants to revive her acting career, so she goes and gets some plastic surgery. Now she's taking over my part. So I get brought in as a British opera singer who gets pie slammed in her face, which was fine, it was fine, whatever. And I fake the British acts, and it was all great. That production gets shut down.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

And then we do one more time when I get brought in as a producer and as an actor, but not in a major role. And also script girl, also, and we produce six episodes for $300,000. Now, here's the funny thing about that: I am not a TV producer, I have never been a TV producer. Here is a check, here's a checkbook for $300,000. You're gonna get everything done.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah.

unknown 41:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

But that was the night, that was the 90s. I mean, that's the late 90s, and and and the whole reason we did the production was because the husband's like, here, you go fulfill your dream, sweetheart.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Right, right. Yeah, that's fun though. Yeah. I when I I did it, my old I I directed the the I I don't, it's not really a documentary. I don't know what you'd call it. It's me doing stand-up for two hours in front of an audience of nuns and police. But uh anyway, uh, so so when I did that, I had to do so much of everything. It's like I'm out parking cars. Yeah, if you get it, it's called ignore heroes, if you ever get a chance to watch it. It's actually if if you can if you can stomach it, it it's uh people didn't know what the hell it was. They're trying to figure it out, they're trying to figure out what this movie was. But but I I I didn't want to do something that's been done so many times. I didn't want to do the standard documentary, a couple talking heads, blah, blah, blah. So uh anyway, but on that movie, I did set design. You know, it was I was directing, I was set design, I was doing craft services on barking cars. I was uh we needed a fluffer to get the crowd scene. So we had hired a comedian, and he was okay, but then uh so I started like heckling him while he's why he's fluffing the crowd that I needed. So then I started I started doing it, you know, and just you know, and just kind of busted the comedian's fault. And anyway, so there wasn't a job I didn't do. You know, I was buying clothing and dressing people and you know, the whole thing. Oh, and then so the way we did it, it was during COVID that everything shut down, you don't know what to do. So in my office, here I am, there's another office next door to me. So I rented, I'm in a church. My I I'm in a church right now. This is where my office is. And uh anyway, so I talked to the reverend. I said, Hey, you guys aren't using this room over here. Can I rent it? And they were stoked because nobody's renting anything during COVID, right? So uh So I got this room and I brought in carpenters and I had a set built inside the room so we could film inside, like a soundstage, which was badass. And then so when I would interview a guy, let's say I'm doing the walls red, the paintings red, carpet's red, everything's red in the room to match him. Here's what he's wearing. Let's do this. So I would shoot that day interviewing that guy. And then when he was done, I would strip the whole thing, paint it, you know, tape it off, paint it, come back in the morning before anybody was else was here, pull the tape, repaint it to the next, you know what I mean, whatever it was, hang everything and redress the room. So if you ever get a chance to look at that movie, you'll see these guys talking in these cool rooms, but it's the same room. And I'm credited as set design because I was I was the one doing it. Yeah. Anyway, it's like what you said. It's like you do everything, you just, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

And that's the thing. After we were wrapped at TV show, I ended up with the flu. Everybody on set ended up with the flu. But I was on my couch for like three days because we were working non-stop.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you just work and work, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

But but it was it was a rewarding job. I wanted to ask you, cops and nuns, you're performing for cop what what made you decide that this was the audience that you needed to perform for?

SPEAKER_02 45:20

I you know, it was kind of a joke because uh, you know, look, God needed the devil, right? I mean, that's the that's the that's kind of the that's kind of the joke. It's uh it's the appreciation of the other side. It's it's I give them what I was talking about on stage. That was their that was their existence. This is what they're there for. These these people, the police, they would have no job if there weren't people like me. If there wasn't a dark side, there are no nuns, there are no police, there are no priests, there are none. You know what I mean? None of those jobs, if you really think about it, if if if if we were all supposedly good, I don't know what the hell that means, but do you know what I'm saying? Let's say we're living some sort of a godly life. There is no place for nuns, there is no place for churches, there is no place, if we were all non-criminal, there is no place for the police. There is no, you know, so so I was talking in front of these people, and it was almost like they were appreciating the fact that I existed. You know, they were laughing at appreciation because it basically kept them in work, kept them in work. But once again, unless you come out at the start of the film and explain that, you know, you know, people are just like, what the f what are you doing, man? But sometimes, you know, they're like Go ahead. Well, no, I was gonna say, and and you know, it's so funny with like punk rockers or whatever the hell. Uh they're always like, you know, we're individuals, we're this, we're that, you know, we're we're open, we we don't, we're not in a box like you are, we're not living those kind of lives. Oh my god, you've never seen so many closed minds in your life. You know, if it's not dressed like this, colored like this, sounds like this, blah like this, it's not punk rock. And how I grew up, I grew up that punk rock meant, you just do whatever the hell you want. You don't, you know, you just finance yourself, book your own tour, put on your own show, do this, do whatever you want, make your band sound whatever you want. That's what I grew up as, and that's what I gave them. I I did exactly what I wanted. I gave it to them 100%. And they said, What is this?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Yeah, and because of your roots in punk rock, you actually were giving a museum tour, were you not?

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Yeah, that's how I'm at Lars.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Punk rock museum.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Yeah, Lars and Jack meet the story. So he took a he took my tour. Yeah, yeah. Which, and I'll tell you that, punk rock museum in Las Vegas. They were asking me, they're saying, Hey, can you do you have suits? I'm like, no, do you have no, no? They'd asked me for stuff. Now, dude, that's just so I'm not going down there. That's that just sounds like a bummer, right? Excuse me. So I didn't want to go. I just kind of blowing it off, you know, whatever, whatever. And then I went, and it was actually really kind of cool. It was, I was walking through and I thought, oh, I played that club. And you know, look, when you walk in that club, there was this like a there was a crawl space on the top, and you could go around the back and crawl through the roof and then drop down through this hole that landed in a room next to the bathroom, and then you could come out and you're in for free. So there'd just be people coming out of this closet, you know, just you know, just and then I'd see people that I knew that had died, they're not, you know, and I'd think, oh my god, there's my friend Bill, and okay, this is Mark. And Mark used to work at the donut shop. We get free donuts. So, so it's basically, you know, when you're given a tour there, you're just reminiscing, you know, and and I think the cool thing is uh that I hope uh, I don't know, I hope people appreciate is that in in not too far of a distant future, there aren't going to be people that can reminisce that anymore because they weren't there. You know, so many of us are dead, and as we're getting older, you know, we're dying more and more and more and more. You know, it's like you look at those old Civil War guys talking about the Civil War, you know, and that's it. Once they're gone, they were gone. That's it. Now, now you can read history, you can do whatever, but there's no first hand accounts anymore.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

No, no, and and you know, that brings me to the quote that I read that said, you know, you went to sleep and you woke up and you were 64 years old. Uh I mean that that's the thing. When we're younger, we don't really think about the fact that we're going to age. We don't think about facing our own our own mortality. You know, even till last year when I had was diagnosed with cancer, it was kind of like, well, you know, everything's good. And then I was like, oh crap.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

No. Well, and what's even stranger is when you think about it, is because inside, I'm 12, 13 years old if that. That's on a very that's on a very mature day. I'm 12 or 13, right? And I think to myself, my mother when she was 91 was still a child inside. You know, and that starts freaking me out too. Because I I'm my father died when he was 56. I'll be 65 this summer. I'm I'm almost 10 years, I'm I'm almost 10 years older than my father when he died. And I remember thinking how old he was. You know, when I was young. And it's strange.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Well, and there's always that strangeness when you do outlive your parent, because my mom died when she was 41. And when I hit 42, it was like I outlived my mom. And that was just a bizarre thing. Because there's this time frame now that you've, I don't want to say borrowed time, but you've extended past them, and what could their life have been like if they had lived.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Right. I mean so much. And that was what you know, the first single pieces of the sun was, you know, was I would I was watching the the sky one day, and I was just thinking about sunlight just falling and hitting the ground. It's done, it's just gone, it's gone, gone, gone. You know, it just comes and goes and just stops, whatever. I know they used the river metaphor, all that kind of stuff, but to me it was the sunlight. And it it's you know, I feel like pieces of the sun. I feel like everything is happening just once. And go ahead. No, and that that was the thing that that was about that song. Like I'm getting older, I'm watching these people, I'm watching it go by and seeing it. I'm listening to my nieces and nephews reminisce about Christmas parties they were at. And and and now that doesn't seem strange, but the fact is, these were the children, these were the toddlers and diapers that are now all sitting together having a drink and talking about, oh God, remember, you know, remember, you know, Christmas 2003 when we were, you know, it's like, I think, man, I was 40 in 2003, I was 40 something. So it's strange still.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

And that's the you know, that's the one thing I will say about that song. It it goes kind of back musically to the punk rock scene. It's it's got the driving force, it's got all those things of what music, what that genre of music used to be. Where a lot where it was kind of funny because one thing Lars said was talking about you, how sometimes you you're like, I'm done with the project, and then you would call him and say, We can't win a Grammy because the record was produced in Germany. And so he saw the words he used was a roller coaster of emotion. And I said, actually, that's a great way to describe the record because there are songs on there that hearken back to the punk, the the driving music of the punk era, but then there's music that is very soft and mellow and feel you know, emotional. So the record kind of is an emotional roller coaster because you have those high moments and then you have those calmer moments.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

And I only said that to screw with Lars. Yeah, and then Lars. Yeah, he was very upset about it. So, so what was funny too, what really screwed with Lars's head is uh, because I would always tell him um, you know, hey, look, we I would talk to him about like a song. What is a song? Like what is it? You know, it's not how it's played, it's the melody, it's the lyrics. This this is what a song is, whether it's a a country rock version or a heavy metal version or a you know a zyda cover, whatever it is, it's the same song done in different ways. I go, so look at look at uh lazy in the bed all day with you, right? Which which is a song on the record and it's very hard and it goes by fast. However, if you slow it down, if you slow that song down, it's really a jazz standard. Uh, you got me where we started, be with my part it. I wanna stay all day and play with you. It's it's it's it's like a 40s. And Lars is going, what are you talking about? What song? What are you talking about? Listen to it, man. And he and he listens to it and he's like, Oh my god. Because it's it's if you slow it down, put the Tommy Dorsey sound to it, throw a horn in, get a you know, a a girl singer, whatever, and you know, it's that you know, you get uh, oh my god, uh, why is her name um slipping me? One of my favorites, anyway. And you really break that down. It's a jazz standard. That's what that song is. And Lars, when Lars did it in the list, he goes, Oh, we should try to get this to so and so. Like, fuck him.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Fuck him, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Turn it into something different. Any facets.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

And I think that you know, for me, for me, a good a good song is if you're sitting with a couple of friends and you got acoustic guitar, you're in this car, can you just sing it with nothing? Like no accompaniment. Can you sing this song? You know, that that to me is a song. You know, it doesn't have to do with the production. If you don't got the beat, you don't have anything, you know. I mean, it'd be funny driving at the roof, the roof, the roof is on the fucking, you know, it's like, whatever, you get it in your head, you know, or something. But but, you know, so anyway, yeah, it was it was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

I've seen a group on Facebook, this was before all the AI stuff, that they would actually turn in, turn our modern music into 40s classics.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Yeah, I've heard some, and I go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

No, they're great. I I think they do a great job with it.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

Because they're songs. That's what it really comes down to. So you can do that. You know, uh other stuff is poetry, yeah, it's poetry, it's cool. The beats are cool, but it's not really a song. It it wouldn't, I wouldn't define that as a song. It's you know, it's it's it's bitch and poetry, you know, spoken word over hard beats or whatever, but it's not necessarily a song.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

So besides since the movie is pending, are you working on another book or are you just kind of not?

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Yeah, I'm actually laugh. I have so many titles. I I start, I start writing them and I save them. I write it, save it, write it, save it. I like to have because I know that that I'm not doing it now because I'm working on this, I'm getting this film going. But when I decide that I'm gonna write a book, it's basically 18 hours straight. It is, it is my wife wondering, you know, when I'm gonna come home. Aren't you gonna come home? You've been over there. My legs are swollen from sitting on the desk for so long, not wanting to get up. I don't answer the phone. Uh one time, my the first book I wrote, my daughter, my older daughter tried to commit me. She said that I had, I was living in a I was living and writing in an office. My girlfriend was editing for me, like I said, uh she would just be crying. I can't do this anymore. You know, I'd say, you're selfish, put your thoughts aside. You know, just just so crazy. And uh they got together my friends, and they had a they kind of had like a group meeting. They were they were they were basically thinking I needed to be stopped. So, so now can I do that right now when I got this movie coming? No, because right now I have to be obsessed on this film.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Understand. I mean, for me, like when I get when I have an idea pop in my head, I go ahead and create a mock-up cover with the title.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Oh, that's badass. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

The book I have coming out in May is Goldilicks and the Bear Brothers Band. Originally, my I had was part of this project, and it was going to be a retelling of Goldilocks and an adult retelling of Goldilocks. But I ended up, I'm like, I write rock star romance, let me turn it in. And I'm like, Goldie, she'll be the guitarist, and Goldilicks, it works. So the boys are all in the band, so there we go. So it was like I'm like, it could also be taken as a very lewd title, but you know, hey.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Well, I I I have a couple that I really like. Like there was one. Um, I I send um I communicate with a bishop every morning. I uh I I I send this communication, whatever, it's it doesn't matter, but it really got me thinking about something. So so I started to write a book, not based on our communication. The bishop's actually writing a book based on our communication, but uh, but this was something else based on uh scripture. It was a piece of scripture that I was taking and uh twisting, and I really liked where it was going, and um, but I stopped it because I started making the record with Lars, so I got obsessed on the record, and now I'm obsessed on making this new film that I am gonna make and finish, and uh and then I'll maybe I'll finish, I'll go to that book next.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

So I have to ask you something, I don't want you to take it the wrong way. Do you consider that sometimes your obsession is your new addiction? Well when it comes to a project, it doesn't hurt anyone.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

No, I know. And it doesn't hurt me, yeah. And I think that's the problem. I mean, you know, people are addicted to a lot of stuff, you know. Uh if if if my obsession of writing and making movies is an addiction, then I would be called a periodic. That's what it is. So there are periodic drunkards where they'll go for a stretch and then they just tie it on and go for a couple of weeks and they don't drink again for a year and then they dive back into it. So, yes, I'm a periodic obsessive.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Okay. And I did, like I said, I meant no offense by it. I understand being being obsessed with trying to get a project finished. I get it. I totally get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

You have to be. You have you can't. I I think, you know, Ahab, all the way across. You you just have to be obsessed. It's, you know, I remember I went I made this record one time. I was playing the Joy Killer, and I got the guys together, and before we did anything, I gathered them all together and I said, I just want to apologize for what I'm going to do to you. Because I knew exactly it was a pre-apology. It's a big joke out here for with a lot of people, you know, the you know, Jack's pre-apology. Because I knew what they were gonna get. You know, it was it was gonna be obsession, turned up to 10. You know, I'm a big guy, I'm loud, I'm I'm forceful, you know, and it's I I knew what was gonna happen. And they survived. They did, and the record sounds great. So that's the that's the key, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

Yeah, that's the important part. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to add? Um, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

We talked about a lot of stuff. I like it. Yeah, yeah. I hope people enjoy the record. People seem to enjoy it. So, you know, we'll see what happens. It's good, it's very good. I thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

Well, thank you so much for having me on. So, talking to Jack, the issue, you know, when we talked about the obsession thing, there's a fine line there because when I look at my own stuff, my obsession is I don't want to say it's an obsession, but my writing is my passion. And so there's where the fine line is. When is obsession and passion the same thing? People are passionate about people, people are passionate about things, people are passionate about creative ventures. So, when does the passion become obsession? And when is obsession passion? It's a very fine line when you think about it. And you know, when I pose the question about why has it become his new addiction? I I think in a way our passion is always an addiction because that passion or or obsession, however you want to look at it, gives us that kick of endorphin. It gives us that that high of look what I've created, look what I've made, look what I've done. Even sometimes talking on the podcast, you know, after I've I've wrapped it up, I am still kind of running on a high from the energy exchange of talking to the guest. If the the show went really well and and I had a good time doing it, it translates into energy for me. But I'm hoping it's also translating to you know that you're part of it, that you feel like you're eavesdropping. That's what used to be told to me a couple of times. And it's like, I want you to enjoy it, but I also want you to feel something. So there's there's the obsession of doing this or the passion of doing this because it's getting a message out to you. It's hopingly giving you some entertainment, some enjoyment, some pleasure. And so you have to look at a bigger picture of when is obsession and passion the same thing. And maybe that's a better way, you know. It depends on how you want to to to word it and how you want to feel and explain it. So, what is your passion? What are you obsessed with? You know, some people are obsessed with things, some people, like I said, are obsessed with people. And for me, at times, writing is an obsession. I am not as obsessed as Jack. I I wish I was because there's a certain way of being able to push yourself in. However, for me personally, uh my problem when I get too obsessed with my work, with my my writing, then I end up blocking myself because I am chasing perfection. And I look at that because the 30-year novel that I have that I've referenced a couple of times on different things, different shows that I've talked on, and even on the podcast, that 30-year novel I was so hard pressed for trying to create something that was perfect that I ended up tripping up and overpainting. I never got out of my own way. And so allowing myself to experience in a bigger way and be open to creating a different version of a character. It gets me out of my way, it allows me to be motivated. The book that I mentioned on the show, Goldilicks. As I was writing that, I got stuck. I got stuck. I I don't know if it was writer's block. It was just for me, it didn't have it, wasn't my normal type of book. And so I found myself taking these two characters and forcing the timeline several years ahead and creating tension and creating drama. And once I did that, I was able to go back and work on what I was working on, which is more of the sweet romance. But that's not me, that's not who I am. I tend to write drama, I tend to write scenes where there's complications, there's character involvement, there's tension, and that didn't have that necessarily, at least at that moment. So by writing the other stuff and then coming back, I was able to bring that tension with it. Maybe not as harsh or dark, but I was able to bring something with it. And it also allowed me to know yes, you're writing this, but this is where this is going. And sometimes, because I'm I'm pretty much a pantster, I can sit here and plot and my characters will take me on a different journey. But by knowing where this was headed, it allowed Me to go, okay, I can do this, which then allowed me after this book was done to start on that next book. It already has a point in it that I know about. It already is leading me down a path. And I had before I ever started that part of the book, I had already planned on that these people will reconnect in their 50s because they're we are not the same people that we were in our 20s, which we kind of alluded to in the podcast, as we are in our 50s. We we now are looking at our own mortality. We're looking at the people that we've lost, we're looking at how precious time is. We're in our 20s, we're invincible, and we're gonna live forever. But we don't, and that's the thing. So why the conversation about passion, obsession, and addiction is because sometimes in order to find our joy and to appreciate the days we have left, we have to embrace our passion because the world around us is not the most pleasant place at all. But if we're doing something that calls to our soul and fulfills us and makes us happy and brings us joy, whether it's hanging out with somebody or doing something creative, it wakes us up, it gives us hope, it gives us possibilities, it gives us a life that we can build on. So I guess what I'm trying to say is try to be authentic, be authentic about your obsession, be authentic about your passion. Now, I'm not saying go stalk somebody, that's not that's not what this is. And you know, as Jack said, as long as it's not doing harm to anyone, that's where your obsession is safe. That's where your passion is safe. Because we we're not condoning anybody going to be a stalker or anything of that nature, but you need to be do something passionate for you. What makes you feel alive? And don't say going 100 miles an hour on the interstate because that's not that's not a safe option either. But find something that opens up your heart and opens up your soul. So on that note, I would definitely check the record out. I I've listened to it, like I said, three times. I've enjoyed it very much, and yes, I am planning on including it that song on the playlist. Um, but I think that it's a nice way to take a roller coaster ride of music because you have some of the the things that hearken back to punk music. The driving, the driving guitar, the the music is empowered, but then you have other thought-provoking songs. So I want to thank Fast Susie for the intro and outro music. I'd like to thank Jack for coming on to the show. And I'd like to thank you guys because without you guys listening, I wouldn't have a show. So, well, I guess I would have a show, but it means much more that I have people actually listening and tuning in. So I do appreciate you. And if you like the show, leave a review, leave a comment. And if you have questions, you know, you you want me to ask a certain question to all my guests, I can do that. But I have to hear from you to know that. So, on that note, take care, guys, and I'll catch you next time. Bye.