SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to the Better Two Podcast. I'm your host, Donna. Today's guest is Fergor Lawler. He is the drummer of the Cranberries. And we talk about their next release, which is live at the London Astoria 2. We also talk about AI, we talk about touring, and we talk about grief. So tune in. Hi Fergle. How are you doing today? Really good, Donna. Thank you. So you are in Limerick, um, and it's kind of a different place for you. I think that's where your roots are. But you are known as the drummer of the cranberries, but you are a bigger artist than that because you also have done studies to get your doctorate to go ahead and work on soundtracks as well as documentaries and other things. And you also had a solo album come out. I know we're here to talk about the cranberries, but I also want to give you credit for where credit's due.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Thank you very much. Yeah, it wasn't a doctorate, it was a master's music technology.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I apologize.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Um yeah, I was debating doing a doctorate, but uh really you only need to do that if you want to teach. So I was quite happy with the masters. It was it was a a huge challenge, but I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

And let's be honest, your credentials will get you a teaching job if you really wanted a teaching job without having that doctorate. Maybe. Oh, I think it would. So when you decided to release us, I mean, I know you guys were it it was unearthed as far as the press release says. When you decided to release live at London Astoria 2, what made you decide this is the right time to do it?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

It was uh something that just came up when we were digging through archives looking for um kind of hidden gems that that like B-sides and that that we hadn't released before for um both Noney2Argue and um everybody else. And someone at Universal came across the video, and you know, the video had been released on a like a VHS cassette or whatever back in the day. And um yeah, someone suggested maybe releasing it on Vine, and I was like, ooh, okay, that could be a nice thing to do. So we had to listen through and uh thought it sounded really good because I think it captures that moment in time when we came back from the US after having our initial success. Um, because we had been touring around Europe and weren't really that well known in mainland Europe. We were kind of a club-sized band, we'll say, in the UK and Ireland, we were playing clubs, and you know, we had a bit of a following, but in mainland Europe no one knew us. And it wasn't until we went to the US that we kind of got that initial success from college radio and then MTV, and then it kind of exploded, and that you know flowed back over the water, we'll say, and picked up here again. So that um Astoria gig was kind of our first time back in London after we made it, we'll say, you know. And yeah, it was a really nice time to capture that because we hadn't recorded our second album. We had uh, I think it was about a month or so later that we went into the studio to to um record 92 Argue.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

And is it weird for you? I mean, when you look back at that, do you do you see the change coming? Did you see that we're gonna make it now? We're not just gonna be this pub band, or was it just totally taken you were taken off guard by it?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, I think we kind of took it in our stride because we had been slogging away for a few years playing clubs and not many people knowing us over here. So then when we finally got to success in in the States, you know, we worked hard. We we we first of all when we landed, we landed in Denver. And we were opening up for uh the the so we played the opening slot with the the and on our days off we played clubs, and then we jumped on a tour with Suede, I think, after that, um a band from London, and we played loads of gigs with them, and then we had like two weeks off and went back and played an opening slot with Duran Duran, and on our days off we would go and play clubs again. So we were working really hard for it. Um, but when you're that age, you know, early 20s, you can do that kind of stuff, and you know, it it doesn't knock a stir out of you. So um, yeah, I I think we all felt we'd worked really hard to get where we were, so you know, I think we felt we deserved it.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Well, and I think that's that's the thing that people have this misconception about when you hit it big on the radio, they think, oh, well, you're just an overnight success. No, there's a lot that goes into that.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah. And I it's good that it happened that way, you know, that was in steps with clubs and then theaters and then kind of bigger venues. Because I think if you went from rehearsal room into playing these massive venues, I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a natural progression. Um, so I'm glad that we did it that way in the steps, and uh and as difficult as it might have been playing to empty rooms for a while, it makes you uh a better musician because you have to really dig in and kind of win the audience over, you know, and and those are things that can't be taught to somebody. You have to experience it and go through that experience and learn how to deal with that emotion, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Well, and it also gives you an appreciation. Um, me when I started in insurance, when I was working in insurance, I started out as a male file clerk. So I knew all, you know, I'm opening mail and doing all this. And I slowly but surely over years worked myself up to a claim supervisor. And the thing about it is I could look at other supervisors that didn't go through that, and they treated the other people poorly because they didn't experience that. They didn't know what it was like. So I think that that when you're playing those clubs and you're building up slowly, you get that appreciation of when you see somebody out there struggling, you can relate to that because you went through it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, completely, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And I think that's a gift with a lot of people don't realize that we can we can empathize. And that's the gift that people don't necessarily have nowadays. Empathy is kind of lost.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Yeah, definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

So when you're looking at going, you know, because one thing when you were talking about playing clubs or playing to an almost empty audience, um, back in I think it was 1985, I saw Adam Ant. And Adam Ant at that point was not in his heyday, he was on the the decline. And I saw him in this cop, I saw him in this theater in Shreveport. And I think if there were 50 people there, that was much. Because and and it's it's incredible to say something or see something like that because you're expecting this person who is known to be able to pack a house. And at a certain point, I know I understand that happens, your career flow ebbs, it ebbs and flows, and you're gonna have that success. And that goes back to the statement about playing those gigs. Because when you hit that downward, you understand that you have to build it up again or you can let it go.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah, yeah. You gotta dig in deeper and work harder, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

So you you have these you have these two records that are great. And then what happens? What happens after, you know, after the success, what what happens when you look around that you have this success? What do you do now?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, after knowing to argue, it it was quite tough at that stage because I think the fame started to kind of um creep in, you know, and it was just um difficult to get more so for Dolores, obviously, because she's the front woman and the front person of any band gets the most attention. And she found it very uncomfortable. We all found it uncomfortable, but she found it very uncomfortable. She she she had uh no escape, you know. Um we could like throw a baseball cap and walk out of the hotel, and not many people knew us, whereas she walked out, they'd know straight away. And so she ended up um kind of being stuck in her hotel room a lot, and it was it was it was very difficult. Um obviously you try and support each other as much as you can. Excuse me, but um yeah, it's just one of those things that um you you learn to deal with over time and um maybe not take it so seriously. And you know, we could have we should have maybe taken a break after nine to argue and just taken some time off. But we we kind of only took a few weeks off and then went into the studio to start recording our third album. And yeah, when we were finished recording that, we went off on tour again and and um Dolores had a knee injury that kind of kept recurring, and that I think all the touring and everything took its toll, and um we had to cancel some gigs uh or postpone some gigs during that that uh to the Fateful Departed uh tour. Um so yeah, I mean those things eventually catch up with you, I suppose. If you if you don't mind your uh physical and mental health, it's gonna catch up with you. And um yeah, that's kind of what happened there. And we just needed to take a break and and take some time off and let the doors recover properly. Um once that happened, then we you know, we kind of realized that we need to tour differently and and kind of take better breaks rather than you know going out for six months, coming home for a few weeks and going out for six months again. You kind of said we'll do like a couple of months, take a few months off. A couple of months, take a few months off, you know, and and just balance it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

I mean it's it's a very common issue because like NXS did the same thing. NXS, when they hit kick, they they went back into this, they toured, they toured. They did take a small break. Michael went off and did some other stuff, but they were constantly touring and constantly on the road before kick came out. You know, they did listen like thieves, and it's documented him talking about how it was a grind. And it's not just you guys because you have somebody in your ear, I'm sure, the record label, going, you know, you're at your peak. You need to keep going, you need to keep putting it out. They want more, they want more. We need more from you. And at that point, you become a commodity more than a person.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah, completely. Yeah, and and there's that kind of fear-mongering of you know, if you take a break now, they might forget you, and you know, you're at your peak now, as you said, and you know, you have to really strike while they're in as hot and make the most of this. And yeah, and you you believe that stuff, but as as you get older and more experienced, you realize that's not the case. Look, we have plenty of hardcore fans. If we take a break, they'll be waiting for us when we come back. And you know, as time went on, we did do that, and and it that was the way it worked out.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

It's it's very much the ego trip being in that game. And I I hate to say it as a game, but in a roundabout way it is. And you can either allow it to take you down, or you can refocus and take care of yourself, which you've done. But the thing about it is when you're in your 20s, you're chasing that dream.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, totally. You don't see it when you're in your 20s, you're too young. You're invincible, you know. At that age, you think anything is possible, and which in one way is great because you have that um strive strive to achieve your goals, but um you don't see the negatives, you don't see what can happen if you push yourself too far. And I think as you get a little bit older, you kind of look back and go, Yeah, yeah, I wish I knew that similar, but you know, um such is life. You need you need to learn it the hard way sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Oh yeah. In hindsight, you know. I mean, we all think that we're invincible and we're not. When I was talking to Ian Dent from EMF when they had Unbelievable out, he's like, you know, so we're taking a break. I just want to get away. I can't, and I've heard the song everywhere I go, the song is playing. So he decides to take a trip to the rainforest. So they go to the rainforest and there's a radio in the rainforest, somebody is listening, and there is a song. He's like, I couldn't get away from it. And I mean, how is that when you when you have that big of a hit, which you had three huge hits, you know, that everybody knew? What's it like hearing that then, you know, when you were having the success? And I mean, now I don't know that you would run across it as much because we have different, you know, we have satellite radio, we have streaming. But what's it like when you hear it? I mean, do are you still taken back to that moment of creating it, or is it just a song?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah, when you hear like Linger Dream Zombie, they're the kind of three main ones you'd hear on the radio or on TV shows and that. And it's like, oh, nice, oh wow, I forgot it was in that. You know, like we were watching Cape Fear last night and Linger came on and was like, oh god, I forgot about that. Because they they come through like months in advance to to be approved or whatever. And then you kind of forget about it. And then you're I was watching Yellow Jackets a few months back, and it was like, oh yeah, I forgot it was in that. So it's yeah, it's nice, it's really nice because the good thing about it is that it's bringing it to a new audience, maybe, you know, that might not enroll the band. And it's like, oh, I like that song, who's that band, and they go off and explore. And yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah, I have uh two stories. I had a friend who was very sick, and Linger was playing on the radio, and she had a high fever, and all she kept hearing over and over again was Linger. That was it. And the other one was actually a good memory. I was uh I was sort of dating this guy at the time, and we were in two separate cars, and he rolls down his window and Dreams is playing, and he starts singing it to me, and I'm just like, okay. So I mean, though that's the one thing about music is your music ends up becoming somebody else's memory.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's it. And because I remember Dolores saying that kind of, you know, once the song is written and it's uh recorded, it's out there, it's not really mine anymore. You know, and and that's I think why she didn't like to explain the lyrics to people, because then it might ruin it for somebody because they have this idea of what the song is about, and it's like, oh, that reminds me of this time, and and I met this person, we went and to the beach or whatever it might be, you know, and and she she was kind of saying, if I explain the lyrics, then it kind of takes that memory from that person, and and you know it's not fair. It's you know, everyone has their own memories of songs, and it's like a photo album to take you back to a certain period of time. Certain songs come on for me, and it's like, oh, I remember that day and so lovely and get goosebumps or whatever, you know. It's it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

So, do you think that you guys will find any more tracks to release or another album after this, or are you just gonna are you going to close the chapter on the cranberries?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Um no, I mean there's there's such um a whole new uh generation has discovered the cranberries, so we kind of want to you know um give them as much as we can. So anything we have, you know, we'll we'll keep rooting and try and find more stuff. And the Bizarre's talks of doing a documentary even before Dolores passed away. We had actually recorded some bits for a documentary that we wanted to do. Um a proper official documentary, because I don't think that has been done. Um so yeah, that's something that we've been thinking about for a while, but you know, um since Dolores passed away, it's been very very emotional. We kind of could couldn't think about it. And a couple of people have have have suggested it, and and it was like, oh geez, I don't know, you know. Give us five years to think about it, and then five years pass and we're kinda like still not ready, you know. It's it's it's even hard going back trawling through stuff for for those special releases of albums because you you're hearing outtakes from the studio and Dolores' talking in that, and it's really it's really emotional, you know, and it's it's it's very uh hard to deal with it because it's still I think we'll always be grieving, you know. It's it's such a shock to lose someone so close to you at such a young age, you know, and it's something you learn to deal with or not really to deal with, but to live with as time goes on. But it doesn't get easier to be honest. It's just um yeah, it's it's a very hard thing to deal with. And I I don't think we're we're quite ready yet for to do a documentary, but as time goes on, maybe it might be uh yeah, I think it'd be a nice thing to do, as difficult as it uh as it is, you know, to give fans that insight into behind the scenes and and see the maybe another side of the lores because she was very uh funny and like to have a laugh. And a lot a lot of people don't know that. I think that that they thought she was really serious all the time, you know, and uh that wasn't the case. Um, so I think it would be nice to let people behind the curtain or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Well, I'm glad you're not closing the that chapter. I'm glad. Um, but I understand grief. I lost my husband back in 2020. And even though I knew he was we were told he was on viral time, the grief still comes. I mean, it's been six years last month, and I still find myself occasionally missing him. I mean, I think I'll always miss him. And I had some, I had a couple of people that were in my life at one time that were like, you just need to move on and get over it. When someone is close to you, whether it be a spouse or a bandmate, because band, let's be honest, even though it is not a marriage, it is a marriage. You guys are family, yeah, you're family, and yeah, and that loss affects you. And it's not just because you were in a band together, it's because this person meant something to you.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, yeah. It's not something you kind of move on.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

No, I I thought because he died during 2020, he died in June, uh, and it wasn't of COVID. The fact is we couldn't have a a normal funeral or anything else, a normal wake. And all he wanted was an Irish or an Irish wake. Basically, friends get together and drink. So two years after it was on his birthday, I was like, okay, I'm I'm gonna plan something for his birthday. And I started putting the pictures together, and I found myself in tears, and I was just like, I can't do this, I I can't reopen that wound. So I understand where you're coming from because even though five years have passed, and and you know, maybe ten years will pass, and it'll still be hard because there is still that pain of the loss.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

And so it's hard. I get it. So when you look at, are there any songs that you guys recorded that you didn't release?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

It might be, I don't know. We haven't kind of gone that far. I think with the first, second, and third album, we kind of dug through everything and there was nothing we found that had you know, we what whatever we found we released with those. Um there was a song on MTV Unplugged called Yesterday's Gone. And the only time I think we ever played it was on MTV Unplugged. We never recorded it. And I don't think we played it live at any point after that for some reason, because it's a lovely song, but it's just one of those weird ones that kind of fell between the cracks and people forgot about it. And it wasn't till till years later we kind of said, Why didn't we ever record that? I mean, it's a lovely song. So yeah, it it's funny when you when you when you go back and and find little things like that. Um to be honest, there's so much stuff there. You know, it's gonna take a long time to troll through. And I think when that process of doing the documentary begins, because there's loads of footage and everything, there might be some things we find in there, but yeah, there's so much it's it's gonna be a full-time job going through it all.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

So, what do you do as far as music now? Are you still doing music for documentaries and and soundtracks and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah, yeah. I finished one um just early last year. No, late last year, I finished a documentary about Don Bluth, you know, the uh animator. He he worked in Disney for a long time and then went out on his own. And I was working with a company in New York called Copper Pot Pictures, really cool guys, and really nice. And um kind of worked on and off for about two years in that and kind of finally finished it um October last year. Um and I have a new project with them coming up soon, and I'm also working on a second album for myself just because after you finish a project like that, it's nice to do something because when you're working for film, you're trying to please the director or whatever, and it's like, okay, we need this kind of mood, and it needs to be kind of rising up here. So you're following all these cues. So when I finish something like that, I like to do something completely free, just for myself with no rules, and just kind of say, Okay, let's just make something here and see what happens. So I've I've been working on a second album, and hopefully, I'd say realistically it would be early next year when it comes out. Um depending how busy they get with other projects. But yeah, it's just nice to do something for myself after finishing a project like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Oh, I can imagine. I mean, it it gives you the creative freedom that you need.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

So how do you feel about AI? Generative generative AI. Let me clarify, generative AI in the music industry.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, I I I don't think it has a place in the arts for creating uh any type of art. Uh that's a human thing, and that's what we relate to as humans. It's like someone bearing their soul or starting with nothing and then creating something from there, you know, from an emotion or a mood. And yeah, AI doesn't have a place in the arts in that respect, and the creative side of it. It's different if you're using it as a tool to help you get somewhere, maybe, but not in the creative side of it, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

I agree. I'm an author, so I I I have to combat it just like you guys. And I mean, podcast, podcasts now they're they have generative AI podcasts. I'm just like, so yeah. I mean, they're the service that hosts my my uh podcast is like, you can have an AI co-host. Why? Why would I do that? I I don't understand. And and that's the that's the intriguing thing about it is that people have come to be like, I can't live life without AI. You did two years ago, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Because even with the options on you know, your search engine wanna do you want to use AI? And it's like, no, no, thanks. I try and avoid them as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Yeah. I have a question. What was the inspiration behind the song, Shaking Hands with Death?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Um I don't know, I I think it's um I lost quite a few people because my dad died just before the lores. And then a close friend of mine, um, an Italian lady I'd known for 20 odd years died of cancer at 50. Um the Christmas before Dolores. So my dad died in November, Clay died at uh Christmas time, and then Dolores in January. So it's kind of three in a row, and I was like, Jesus, you know. Um and I I I I don't know, I think that title came from just accepting that we are mortal and there's nothing you can do about it. You could kind of have to live your life to it's full because you don't know when death is gonna come knocking on your door, and just kind of have to make the most of life and try and enjoy it as much as you can while you're here and just accept that someday I'm going to die, and there's nothing I can do about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

When uh when my husband and I got together, he was already kind of sick, and he's like, you know, uh he tried chasing me away, and I just looked at him and said, It's better to love you and lose you than never to have loved you at all, which is you know, cliche, I know. And I would tell him, I said, You don't know, I could get in a car accident, I could pass before you. You don't know.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Of course, it played out that the way we know it played out. But the fact is, if you don't take those risks and live life, because yes, we're all gonna end up dead. Eventually, our time is gonna come. We may be in our 20s, we may be in our 80s, who knows? But we have to try to live life as best we can.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, totally, because I mean, you're just surviving, otherwise, you know, wrapped in a blanket in your room, afraid to go outside because you might get hit by a car. You know, that's not living.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

No, no, and and that's the thing, is like right now with the world the way it is, there's a lot of fear. And so you have to try to get past that fear in order to keep going forward.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Definitely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

And to have hope. That is that is, I think, the biggest gift about life is you have to have hope. Because once you don't have hope, then you're not you're gonna be in that that room wrapped in that blanket.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah, totally, yeah, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

So, since we discussed teaching, have you ever thought about teaching or have you taught? I did.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Um when I finished the the master's, um, there was a friend of mine who had done the same course a couple of years previously, and he said, Look, I'm teaching some um secondary students, so the high school students probably. And um he said, You want to come and do do it with me? So you'll take one class and I'll take another class, and we'll you know, do a couple of days. So I tried it out and I just so nervous, and yeah, it's just not for me. I I I I did a few weeks here and there, and you know, it would be like two days in one school, two days in another school, and we'd travel around to a few different schools, and it was kind of like this is not for me. Uh, you know, I I felt like an actual teacher when I was in school, and I had no respect for my teachers. Well, some of them, but most of them were gob shit. Like, and I was like, oh no, I don't want to be one of those people. This is like killing my soul. So I kind of said, no, no, it's definitely not for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

When I was doing some research on your background, somebody on TikTok had posted a picture of your your drum kit and how impressed they were with it. So I was like, okay. And I was I would think that even though it's been maybe a long time since you've been out there, people are still looking at what you're doing and still admiring your kit and your ability.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

That's nice to hear. I haven't played in such a long time because I'm playing more piano, keyboard, synthesizer, that kind of thing, and trying to learn guitar. But my daughter plays, she's um almost 21, and she's been playing for a few years, and she's in music school now, so she's she loves it. She's taken over to baton.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah, I mean, drumming is a really physical thing. And I don't think it people realize how physical it is.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, it's a workout, totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

And if you haven't done it for a while, I'm sure it would not be easy to get behind a drum kit and play for two hours.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

No, definitely not. You need to kick you'd need to get back in training if I was gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

So, what made you decide to pick up the drums?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Um I don't know. Um I always had rhythm because I met Noel and Mike when I was like 14, we were breakdancers. So just bumped into them breakdancing somewhere. And yeah, I think I always had natural rhythm. And then um when I was like 17 a friend of mine had a drum kit. I I said, I'd love to have a look at it. So went down to his house and he played some songs, I think the cult love removal machine or something like that. And I was like, Oh my god, wow! And he said, Do you want to go? Well, sit down there, and he showed me what to do. He said, You know, put your foot there, put your other foot there, and cross your hands like this. And I I kind of sat down and kind of did what he did, and he was like, Have you played it before? I was like, No, no, never. He said, Well, you better get a drum kit because you have some kind of natural ability. And I was like, Okay. And I was 17, so I felt I was late. Kind of, you know, because a lot of musicians like, yo, I was seven or eight when I got my first kit, or got my first guitar, and I was like, 17, I got a lot of time to make up. So I practiced every single hour that came to me.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I got my first bass guitar at 17, so I understand.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

And did you feel like that as well that you were a bit late to the game?

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah, yeah, I did. Um, and it's funny because I grew up, my dad was an organist. He played, he had an organ, he played it all the time until my parents split. But I grew up with that, but nobody said, hey, we should foster her to play mute. No, that wasn't even a consideration. It was like, I'm the organist, I play, you you do whatever, child. Um, and I wanted to be a drummer, I really did, but my mother was like, No, there's no way you're getting a drum kit. There's no way. I was like, okay, fine. So I did feel I did feel like I was a late developer, but the fact of the matter was I didn't, it wasn't my passion. I enjoyed playing, I could pick it up easily, but I was picking up a guitar for the wrong reasons. And that was to chase that was to chase fame. And it wasn't that I loved music and I could play with the best of them, but it was for the wrong reasons, and I know that now. Looking back, I know that now.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

So now I write about go ahead. I was obsessed, completely obsessed with music, and it was like, I don't care. As long as I make enough to survive, is all I want. Uh, if I can this can be my daytime job, that's all I want. And that's always the attitude I had from the beginning. You know, I was just obsessed.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

I I was more obsessed with writing, I would spend more time writing, and I never really thought about it. And now, yes, I'm a writer and I write rock star romance. So I took my love of music and wanting to be that musician to combined. Yeah. So I mean, you you have to find your passion and your joy. And while I still have my first bass guitar and I haven't played it in years, and yes, my husband and I had conversations about I don't think you can play. And I did play for him eventually, but once you quit playing, kind of like the drums, you have to remember everything, and it's not necessarily easy.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

It's not like getting on a bicycle, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Those uh muscle memory things, you know, it takes a bit of while to get going again, and your hands are not as flexible as they once were. So running on the fretboard is not gonna be what it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yeah, a lot more painful, I think.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

So when you, you know, did you kind of push your daughter into saying, hey, do you want to do music, or did it just come to her naturally?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

No. Um, she asked me, and I was kind of trying to push her away from it, really. Um but yeah, she was the one who kind of said, Look, I want to do it, I want to try this. And she was playing away. And then just before she went to college, when she finished school, um, she was like, I don't know what I want to do with my life. And I said, What is your passion? What do you love more than anything else? And she was there, playing music. And was there, so why don't you go to college and study the music? What kind of job am I gonna get from it? It's like, don't even think about that. Go to college, enjoy your four years of study, and you know, something might pop up, and if not, you're four years older then, and you can decide then what you want to do or do something else, and you know, she's like, Yeah, it's a good way of looking at it. So that's what she's doing now.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Well, and it's not very uncommon for somebody that has been in the industry, they kind of say, you know, you don't you wouldn't want to do this. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

It's not it's not what you think.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

But there's a gift that you're her father, because you can sit there and say, Okay, yeah, I'm going to sit here and we're gonna have a discussion about the ins and outs of the business. She has somebody when she has questions to go directly to and say, Hey, I mean, I I often laugh about my dad. My dad gives me this anti-drug speech. I'm 21 years old. My dad gives me this anti-drug speech, and this is it. I've tried everything and they weren't worth it. So don't do it. Firstly, I'm 21 if I've already I could have already experienced a lot of stuff, but yeah, here. This is so you have that open dialogue, unlike my father and I. So it's a good thing that she has you for that resource.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah, I think so, yeah. And she does, you know, ask me a lot of questions, and I kind of try and steer her as best I can.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

And I mean the the world has changed a lot since you you were doing that, the big stage production and everything. But the thing is, and I've talked to several artists about this, no matter how much AI infiltrates the recorded business, it's never gonna re infil infiltrate the live aspect.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

No, um it's funny because I I've seen it I I went to see Patty Smith the other night. She was playing in Limerick um last week, and she's 79, almost 80. Strolled out three or four musicians with her, and just absolutely beautiful performance, and it was all real, and and she was singing a Bob Dylan song, and she messed up with the lyrics and kind of went screw that up a bit, sorry about that, but at least you know it's real, and it was like, see, you know, I mean that's the beauty of live music, you know. I hate when live bands have like loads of backing tracks and stuff, because it just seems very regimented, you know, and uh it just takes away from the whole that that that real experience. Um so I prefer to see go and see someone play live, make a mistake, and go, you know, we'll try that again, or you know, at least you know then they're actually playing and it's not half the stuff isn't then back on track.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Which that's then kind of takes us back to the release because you are giving them something that sure it could be enhanced, maybe tweaked a little bit the sound quality, but you're giving them something that was pure in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah, yeah, and kind of captured us just before it went to the next level of fame, you know. We were there was still an innocence to it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Do you think fame changes your attitude about life in general? Um for you it was different a little bit because you were saying you could walk out of your hotel.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah. But I I did find when we came back just that that Christmas um before the Astoria gig, we came back to Ireland. So we left Ireland, nobody knew who we were. We came back and landed in Shannon Airport, and there was camera crews and news TV crews and everything. It was like, oh my god, what the hell? And then walking around Limerick and that Christmas time, there's people going, Look, there's your man from the Granaries, blah blah. And it was just a bit, oh, you know, it was yeah, I found it very overwhelming, and because we were all quite shy people, and suddenly to have people pointing and that was very uncomfortable. But as time goes on, we came back and you know, people just say oh there's your mouth from the groundwork, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's he's always here. They live here, you know, it wasn't a big deal, there was no one no big deal, and that was fine, we just got used to it, then it wasn't you know it wasn't as freaky, I think.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

When when you were touring with the bigger band, like Duran, how how was that? How was it with somebody touring that had already had the ups and downs of fame? Were they sociable with you to give you advice, or was it just kind of like, hey guys, bye, you know?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Oh, yeah, they were very sociable, they're really nice people, and we were starstruck because you know we grew up in the 80s, and Durand Duran were all over TV and top of the pops and on the radio, so it was like my god, you know. But then after a few weeks of touring, you're just chatting to them, they're normal people, and they're chatting away, and they're very nice and treat us really respectfully. And yeah, it was sweet. You know, it was it was nice to see that you just sit down and have an arm conversation with these people.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah, that's that's the thing. I mean, I've met them several times. And at the time when I started talking actually getting to talk to them and hang out was around 93, 94. So um, I got to be friends with their drummer at the time, Fergus Durand, who is really down to earth and really a great guy. And that's the thing I I try to tell people. It's like if you want to meet somebody that's famous, don't run up to them and scream in their face.

unknown 40:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

They're people, they're just like you. If you're sitting there going, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, they're not gonna they know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Yeah, your music is gonna back away.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Yeah, yeah, they're they may say hi, they may give you your autograph, but they're not gonna have a conversation with you. And that's the the wild thing where people don't understand that. That you guys are all you you have really cool jobs, but you're just like me as far as you live life, you you do normal daily things, and they don't see that.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

So yeah, I grew up with Duran as well. I mean, I won't lie, I grew up with Duran, I grew up with NXS, those were the core bands in my my genre at the time, Depeche Mode, all those things, but I know well enough because I got to meet NXS too. They're just people, yeah. So and that's the thing, being starstruck, we all get that starstruck feeling until you get to that point where you realize, yeah, this is it's just a game, it's a facade.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Speaking of which, actually, when we were we were at the Grammy Awards a couple of years back, and I'm a huge fan of Tool, the band Tool. And um I saw Danny Carey in the distance, the drummer from Tool, and I was like, oh my god, will I? Will I want to? Will I? And I ran off and I was like, a little fanboy, because he's like six foot something, huge. And I'm like, this, I don't know, five foot something. And uh, I was like, Danny, Danny, uh I just like blurred it out. I'm a huge fan. Can you sign this? I saw you play live last year. So I was like, like a crazed fan myself, you know. So I'm sure he was looking at me going, what is this person even saying? Because he probably didn't understand my accent to begin with. And uh, he's just kind of looking at me a little bit, stepping back.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

John Taylor talked about this story about at Live Aid, McJagger was there and he ran up to McJagger. McJagger was standing off to the side. He's like, Mick, Mick, I'm really it's like you don't expect those moments of to be so starstruck. I'm yeah, I think the first time I talked to John, I would it was at an airport, and I was a little starstruck. I admit that. I was a little, I I was a little starstruck, but I kept it together because I had already met Gary, Beers of NXS. And so it's like I already had the bass player notion in my head because I can talk to him about bass playing. That's where I go. So I kept it straight, I kept it cool. When I walked away, I admit I my legs gave up. I don't know why. I don't know why. I walked away over to my friends, and all of a sudden my legs went on. I'm like, what in the world? Never happened again, never ever. And I'm just like, I was mortified that that happened, but you know, and nobody I've never really said that to anybody except for the people that were there. So yeah, um, it's one of those things where it happens to anybody. I don't care how put together you are, it happens.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

But don't start the conversation off with, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Because then it's just like no. I'm gonna back away now. So what is the weirdest fan story you have for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

As in fans coming up to us?

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Um they were all fans were all very respectful. Um there was one on the first tour. There was a bunch of guys um they used to come to our gigs in the UK, and um so we were in the States, and myself and Mike used to share our bedroom. We were on the Dead tour. And uh the phone rings, and uh it's like, hi, it's Dave. We're here, and um I Dave is the drummer from Dede, okay, and I thought it was Dave, and I was there, yeah, you're downstairs in the lobby, is it? We're going to sound check now soon or whatever. And he said, No, no, Dave from the UK, we're here. So he had remortgaged his house and said to his wife, I'm heading off to tour with the cranberries. So he like himself and three friends just flew over to the US and kind of fired around our tour for a few weeks. And I was like, Are you remorgaged your house? What why would you do that? We're gonna be back in the UK like in a few months' time. And he's like, I had to come and see you guys over here. And I was like, Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Have you kept in contact with this person?

SPEAKER_01 45:47

No, but one of the other guys I I keep in contact with.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

And did he lose his house or did he keep his house?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

I think he kept his house. Yeah. Because I asked um I asked the other lad um if he still didn't in contact with them and he says he hasn't seen him in years. So last I heard was he still has the house.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Well, the is an excellent band, and I will say the the uh their music actually still fits what's going on in the world today.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah, totally. Yeah. They played not in last year, but I I didn't want to go and see them because I watched every gig we when we when we opened up for them, I would you know, we'd finish and I'd go out the front and watch every single gig. It was like I don't know, two months worth of gigs or whatever. So and they were absolutely outstanding. And I felt if I went up and saw them last year, 20 odd years later, 30 years later, whatever it is, that it would kind of spoil what I saw back then. So I kind of said, I want to keep that memory in its place, so I'm not gonna and the same with Pro Jam. I saw Pro Jam twice in the 90s, early 90s, and uh I couldn't go and see them now because it would take from that experience.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

I get it. Uh the reason I asked about the weird fan stories is uh John Taylor from Durant had mentioned once that this girl he had met, they did some kind of signing or something, and he had a cold. He's like, Well, next the following year we go back and doing this other thing, and this girl comes up to me and she's like, I got your cold. It's like excuse me. He's like, She's like, I took your Kleenexes from the trash can catch your cold. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm like, and the we're in back in the early 2000s, somebody was selling Johnny Depp cigarette butts on eBay for $700. And I'm like, why? And it came with a certificate of authenticity. I'm like, what are you gonna do with this? You know what are you seriously gonna do with this? Are you going to put them to your lips and think he's kissing you? Or what are you doing? So I mean, that's why I asked the fan question because I know that sometimes there are bizarre fan stories. So mortgaging your house to follow you around, that's that's a little bit up there.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

At the worst, yeah, yeah. It's not worse.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Yeah, it is. So as far as how would you describe if you were gonna give some advice to an up-and-coming musician, what would you tell them? I mean, I know you have your daughter, but this is not non-family related.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

So first to make the most of it and really enjoy every moment because and not take it too seriously, I think. You know, there's certain stuff you have to take seriously. Like when we went on stage and played, we were always really focused, looking at each other, getting trying to get that bond as as tight as possible. Because that energy then goes out into the audience and they feed it back to you, and it's an amazing experience when it's all working perfectly and everything sounds great. Um but then when you're I mean, that's only like 10% of touring because the rest of it, you're in trains or buses and planes and hotel rooms. So just try and enjoy it, go out, get out of the hotel room, walk around a new city and explore. I would always try and do that rather than be locked in your hotel room watching MTV and CNN, you know. So yeah, I think explore and and and see experience other cultures as much as you can and enjoy it and have fun with each other because you know it's a family kind of vibe when you're on tour like that and just make the most of it.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

What was your favorite place to tour?

SPEAKER_01 49:43

I loved everywhere to be honest, because you know, it was easiest to tour in the States because everything was available 24 hours. You know, you go somewhere like Italy. It's like you know, back then especially it was like everything closed between 12 and 4. So you finish sound checking, you're starving you want to go and get something, it's like ah, everything's kind of closed, or you know. Um so yeah, it was the easiest to tour in the States because everything was available 24 hours. You know, sometimes you couldn't sleep, you go and find a late-night diner, French fries and eggs and steak and eggs or whatever, you know, and it was great to have that available. But um, yeah, I enjoyed touring everywhere. Um, because I would I would go out and explore and and see different cultures, different places.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

And that's the thing about you know touring is when you perform that show, you're coming off stage from a high, and you have all that energy that you've gotten from the audience, and it's hard to wind down right away after that.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

Yeah, yeah. And so we normally we normally get in the bus and drive to the next city. So then you'd be on the bus, listen to music, chatting, or watching a movie or something like that, and just kind of gradually teasing down.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

I think it's you know, it's important too that you were talking about how you get that energy from the crowd. I've talked about that before. The the key thing, even when starting, is the music itself is energy. You've created something, and there's energy and frequencies in there, and then you feed that to the audience. And when you're having an off night, it's gonna come across, and vice versa. If the audience is not gonna give you what you need, and vice, and then so therefore the show isn't gonna be what you need. Yeah, and and it's amazing how that actually translates, but nobody ever really looks at that. And even when you're having an off night, if the crowd is so wrapped up in the energy, they're never gonna know.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

You may know it, yeah, but they're not yeah, because there was some nights one of us would say, It wasn't great tonight, and the other three would look and go, I had a great night. And then it would happen for somebody else some other night because I don't know, whatever. It's not gonna be fantastic every night. It's impossible for that to happen. I have to have the waves of up and down. And but the nights where all four of us come off and went, Oh my god, what a gig that was unreal. That that was something special. Was the story of one of those gigs? Don't remember. I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was a good gig, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

I figured I'd be that nervous. Yeah. I mean, by then you you had to be in a comfort zone, you had to have a comfort zone there of we've done this. This is gonna be cake. It's not gonna be that big. Yes, we're playing some new songs, but we got this.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah, I don't think we were too nervous at that point, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

So when you look at putting the tracks down for those set lists, like the show, this was uh an important show for you. What made you decide to go ahead and try so much new material?

SPEAKER_01 52:57

I think we had been playing some new material because I'm not sure we we were writing at sound checks. So Dolores or Noel would come in with an ID and start playing at sound check, and we'd have a listen and just start jamming around and then record them on a tape just so we could listen back and wouldn't forget them. Um and then after like three or four days of doing that, it was kind of like, okay, this song has taken shape, will we put it in the set tonight? So we started playing it live. So a lot of those songs on the second album had been played live before we recorded them. Um I think that that that made the whole recording process go a lot faster because we had been playing them live and we had a you know rough idea of where they were going. There was some little tweaks to be done in the studio. And um yeah, it just kind of took the pressure off, I think. You know, because we weren't we didn't go into the studio and say, okay, now we're starting the second album. We have nothing but let's you know jam and see what happens, you know. Um we kind of had a lot of work done before we got into the studio.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

And it's something you're very proud of and you should be very proud of. It's a good album. It is.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's still sound, it still holds up well today.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

And you're releasing it on vinyl, you're releasing a double EP lava set, and then you're releasing a regular vinyl as well as CD. I'm surprised, um, as well as streaming. The only thing you're missing is cassettes, and cassettes are making a comeback, which I still don't understand, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

It's funny. I have to show you something here.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

I found this in my parents' house. Oh wow. Two days ago. That's cool. Oh my god, look at that. And it's the tape and everything. Nice. Uh yeah, I showed it to my kids and they're like, what's that? And I'm a sort of cassette tape. So it's like a CD, but it was pre-CD. And we're like, all right. Kind of looking at you.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

I mean, I still have 45s. I still have some 45s. I have some 78s from my grandmother, you know, the the old, old records. And of course, I I think singles lost their appeal when they started doing the cassette singles, and the the CD singles never really took on.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

No. The only reason I buy a CD single, I I used to troll to record stores and um to to get like a rare B side of you know certain things.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

I understand that. So, is there anything that we did not talk about that you would like to add? No, I'm all good. All right. Well, I thank you for coming on. Okay. So talking to Fergal about grief and loss and about trying to work on a project that drums up all those emotions and those feelings. You know, I can understand why you don't necessarily want to open that door. Because here we are, you know, you're you've five years out, and you think, okay, it's gonna be easier. But I think we put, you know, we put this we put I don't want to say salve on the the wound. When we put something on the wound, we think it's patched over, we think it's healed. But yet when we go back to those times, those memories, that pain comes back. Those feelings come back. And sure, we move on, we continue with our life and we continue to do what we have to do. But there's a certain point where something will trip us up and we'll be in that feeling. You know, there's times, like I was saying to Virgil, there's times when I will sit here and feel that loss just as much. You know, the horrendous thing for me was when John first passed, is he passed in the car with me, and we've talked about this on other episodes. And for the longest time, I think it was like the first two months of his passing, I relived that over and over again. And it wasn't an easy thing. I don't I don't see it anymore, fortunately, but I had to face it, I had to deal with it, I had to work my way through it. And yes, time heals all wounds, but sometimes that wound is still there, that loss is always gonna be there. Because, as I said in the podcast, and and verbal agreed, was it's a family, it's a marriage, it's all those things when it's a band. It's not just, oh well, you know, here's such and such. Unless the person is just a player that you've you picked up for a you know, the season to hire, you've got some studio music musicians to do the recording, and we're gonna hire a player to play to tour with us. But even at a certain point, that touring musician may become something more. You know, we've talked about Durant on the podcast, and Durant hired Don Brown as their guitarist, and Dom Brown has been with them for 20 years. So, you know, but you you can't say that that person, that Dom, doesn't mean something because he's been with the band for that long. Now, he may not be a permanent member of the band, he may not have all the band decisions to make, but he is still somebody they obviously respect. So, when you're dealing with a band, there is that family interconnectedness. And I think that's part of the reason why I choose to write what I do is because there is that relationship. And I remember taking an um, this is before online existed, I did a mail, you know, send-away course to learn how to write. I never finished it, but I I pitched my idea that I was gonna write about rock stars and you know, this whole trial and tribulation, this is back to that 30-year novel. And the person who was going to be my mentor, my teacher said to me, it's a great idea because there is that family dynamic, there is that that friendship, that marriage of partnership. And so when you're you're dealing with the loss of that, when you're dealing with the loss of a member, you lost somebody that you've created this with. That's the thing we don't deal, we don't talk about is grief is not just losing your spouse. Grief is not just losing your parent. It's not just death. Grief can occur when you lose your job, grief can occur when you're in a relationship, whether it be a friendship or just dating. There's a certain level of grief to this, unless the person was a total shit, and then you know that's a different story. But the fact of the matter is there's always a certain amount of grief involved because you're closing that chapter. This is a person you shared memories with, and while you would like to go back and talk to them and reconnect with them, the the rose-colored glasses have come off, so can you really go back to where you were before it happened? Before the loss happened. And you've had that grief, you've had that moment. So while in a situation where it's a friendship or even a relationship, you know, you can go back because you're trying to recapture what you lost. But that grief changed it, that grief, that loss changed it, and it's never gonna be what it is or what it was, or what you allowed yourself to believe it was. So pay attention to your emotions when something ends, pay attention to that because like when I left my job, I had to re-identify who I was, I was no longer the claim supervisor, I was no longer that person. And so you have to see yourself for who you are and understand that you have certain levels of grief you're gonna go through in your life. Loss of a parent, the loss of a pet, the loss of a child possibly. And even if your child is alive, when your child goes to school and your child steps out of the nest and your child starts to experience life in a whole different way, there's still grief involved in that because you have now seen them grow. They don't need to rely on you. Your role has been be is going to become different. And because of that, there is that loss, that emptiness, that that hollow feeling. So work through it, accept it. Accept that every relationship, everything in our life has some kind of loss attached to it. I'm not saying it's not to take the risk, because you should, but understand that that loss will help you grow. And sometimes we may never get past it totally, but we can still keep going forward. And that's that's the important thing. So on that note, I'd like to thank Fergal for coming on the show. Yes, my nose itched. Um, and yes, it's real, and that's why I'm gonna leave that in there. Uh, but I'd like to thank Fergal for coming on the show and definitely go check out the latest release. It's um, I had a sneak peek when we taped this. So it's good. It'll take you to that lovely feeling of being there in the room watching the show. And so definitely go check it out, uh, live at Astoria 2. And it's available on multi-formats, which we talked about in the show. And you know, I'd like to thank FastSusie for the intro and outro music. And most importantly, I'd like to thank you guys for tuning in, no matter when you're listening, morning, noon, or night. I do appreciate it. Um because yeah, there's a lot of times I'm almost on to episode 250. And there's a lot of times when I'm like, uh, should I keep going? And that's still debating, but I do this because I want you to enjoy it. So on that note, I thank you guys for tuning in again, and uh, I'll catch you next time. Bye.