SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to the Better Two Podcast. I'm your host, Donna. Today's guest is Paul Leary. Paul is from the Butthole Surfers, and we talk about their new music, which is actually old music, but it's kind of new music because, well, there's a story behind it. So tune in. Hi, Paul. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 0:55

I'm doing excellent. I hope you are too.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I am. I am. It it's been a day, but it's it's worked out okay. So you have a long-storied career with the butthole surfers, and the record that you have coming out in June has a long journey as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Because Powers That Be didn't quite like it when it was back then.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

No, the Powers That Be liked it actually. Um we we made a record, we mixed it, we had it mastered, uh commissioned artwork from uh famous artist Mark Ryden. It was all ready to go. Capitol Records sent out promo copies. And then uh our relationship soured with the label. I think it had a lot to do with our manager uh returning to his dope ways after being sober for many years, and that uh kind of things got wrecked, and we got dropped, and that was the end of that album on Capital.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

And so then you were kind of tied to contracts, I'm sure, about being able to release it then, correct?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Yeah, they you know, we we were dropped, but our contract was not dropped. So uh we spent the next couple of years in limbo not being able to release an album or or do anything because Capital just kind of sat on us and and said too bad.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

That happened in Rick Springfield's early career, too, with RCA. He had the same kind of deal, he recorded stuff, and then all of a sudden there's he couldn't do anything. He was under contract and it wasn't working out, so he ended up being a soap opera actor. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

I I never considered that. I you know back then I was really into the young and the restless. I would have loved to have been the soap opera star.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I'm sure it would have been fun. So you decided now, after all of this, to release the record, and it seems kind of timely as far as what's going on in our world. At least Jet Fighter does.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, uh, you know, that's I've been hearing that, and uh, it's not the first time that's happened on our records. Um yeah, I was a couple of years ago, I was going through our old uh butthole surfer storage space, and we were we were clearing it out, and there was tape stashed all the way in the back, and I ran across the old two-inch multi-tracks for that album and got to thinking, oh, I would love to mix that now that you know I'm a I'm a better mixer than I was 20 years ago. And I would love to mix that. And uh so I contacted uh Hollywood Records, who owned the rights to that album. They bought it from Capitol, and uh to their credit, they said we could release it, uh, got it on paper and everything. So kudos to Hollywood Records. That was a cool thing for them to do.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, yeah. And especially, are they still gonna be part of the label or they just gave it to you outright?

SPEAKER_02 3:59

They just gave it to us outright. It's it's coming out on uh Sunset Boulevard Records, so it's a completely different deal.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

That's what I thought, but I wanted to confirm because you know, sometimes people have little niche labels. So how does it feel to step back into that time period, you know, since this was the late 90s when you wrote this, mid to late 90s? How does it feel to go back and revisit that music? I mean, does it still feel feel pure in your heart, or is it just okay, we're gonna do this?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

It felt very pure in my heart. Um, you know, I'd we uh we signed a deal with Matador Records to re-release all of our pre-major label records, and so I'd been going through uh the tape vaults remixing and remastering and and putting all that stuff back together again. So I was kind of used to going back in time and listening to our old music, you know, some of it from 1983. And uh, you know, it was really fun because I thought this record was well recorded, it sounded good, and I liked the songs, and it reminded me of a really good time that uh the band had in the studio, you know, putting all the pieces together that we'd been working on at home. And so it was it was a fun process. It was fun to mix and fun to listen to, and I I just I'm just thrilled that it's finally coming out. Well what you do. Yeah, the go ahead. I was just gonna say that the version of it that did come out was called Weird Revolution. And when when Hollywood Records bought the project, um, they wanted it to be different than what Capital had. And so they wanted songs remixed and rearranged, and some songs left off and others added, and uh that was a painful process for us because we had the record that we wanted the way we wanted it, and then to be told no, it's gotta be different or no deal, and so we were kind of forced to play along, and uh I'm just so happy that we get you know get to do it the way we wanted it done, and so that's what's coming out this summer.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

And that's kind of what I was referring to when I said the powers that be weren't quite happy with it because you had to go back in the studio, and and um I talked to Tracy Bonham, and she went kind of through the same thing. She had a label and she had her second record done, and then the label sold, you know, was bought out, and she was transferred to another division that didn't know anything about the type of music. And so she was left in limbo kind of figuring out what do I make. And I think that happened to quite a few artists in the late 90s. It's like music was evolving, and we had Napster, and we had all those other things coming about that changed the game.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Well, Napster would that was dark days for the music business. Dark, dark days. I almost declared bankruptcy during that period, you know, and all of a sudden music should be free. You know, my my lawyer should be free. He's not, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

But is but isn't that the same thing you're dealing with now with like Spotify?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Spotify actually pays.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah, but do they pay they pay pennies?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

You know, I don't understand how the whole thing works, but if if you're a big big time act, like say Sublime, they get more per play than than a little guy. And I don't know why, but that's that's the gist of it. And so like I I make a pretty good living off of Sublime.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Well, and and that's I mean, it's it's the same thing with as an author for KDP or Kindle Unlimited, we get paid like 0.0006 per page read. You know, how do you even figure that out? But okay. And and the thing is now you also have to contend with with Spotify and other services, the AI slop music that's coming out.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

I have not heard the AI music slot that's coming out other than like joke songs where you know country western singers are singing filthy, horrible, perverted lyrics, which is kind of amusing for a second. But you know, I'm I'm I don't listen to a whole lot of music actually, so I'm a lot of that's just passing me by.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Be thankful because I mean it's it's kind of everywhere, and and some songs have actually made it into the charts, which is just crazy.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah, that's I I have uh a brilliant cousin who's older than I am, and uh like 20 or 30 years ago, he was working at Texas Instruments in their artificial intelligence division. They had one back then, and uh he was telling me, you know, you can have a computer, write music, you know. What what do you think about that? And I was like, well, you know, can you teach a computer to to have a broken heart or be pissed off? You know, it's just I just I didn't see any future for it back then, and so I'm I'm still a little skeptical, I guess. Well, no, that's that's where it comes from the heart, it doesn't come from the chips.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Exactly, and that's the that's the thing why it's called slop, because like with the in the author world, you have people that are writing books that it's like, okay, this woman discovers her missing mother that's been gone since she was seven years old, and she's now in her twenties, and she has no emotion to this. It's like there'd be something there. There would be. But if you could go back in time to when you I mean, because I I did some research. If you could go back in time and tell the little kid who was gonna be in a band, you know, that got his first guitar, would you tell him anything different to change his journey even slightly?

SPEAKER_02 9:41

No, I would not. Um, you know, I started playing guitar back in like 1962. Got my first electric guitar in like 6066 or something, and played in my first band that year in front of the whole elementary school, and uh did it again in the sixth grade and played in garage bands through junior high school and high school, and then I gave up guitar in college. I just thought it's not gonna happen for me, I'm not good enough, and and I'd I'd rather be the next Pablo Picasso. So I put the guitar down for four years, and uh it wasn't until I met Gibby Haynes, who was an accounting student, and uh he landed a great job out of college with Pete Marwick and Mitchell, which at the time was the biggest accounting firm in the world, and he quickly discovered that he wasn't cut out to be an accountant, so he wanted to be in a band, and he kept trying to talk me into playing guitar in his band, and I was reluctant and finally went over to the practice space one day and played with them, and then I was hooked again. So I'm sorry, I can't even remember the question now.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

No, that's fine. Uh it was just about if you could go back and tell yourself something different, and and then obviously not.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Well, but you know, I I have regrets about certain things and certain things I've done and certain things that turned out the way they did. But on the other hand, um I met my wife, and she's just the greatest thing in the world that ever happened to me, and I would be afraid that if I changed any single detail in my life, that that would not have happened. So I wouldn't change a thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

I can I can understand that uh completely. So when did you pick up the bass and the keyboards?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Uh that would have been um shortly after joining Gibby in the practice space, you know. We we didn't really have a bass player, but we had a bass guitar, and we would kind of pass the bass guitar around and take turns with it. And uh when we went into the studio to record our first record for alternative tentacles, we did not have a bass player, so you know, the bass isn't that far off from being a guitar, you know. Um I'm not a bass player, but I can play a bass and do enough to satisfy my meager needs. And keyboards, I I can't play keyboards, but I can press down on a key and make a sound and shoot.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

So you guys have a documentary that you filmed, and it was shown at South by Southwest and a couple other festivals. Um, when is that going to be coming out?

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Supposedly this summer. You know, I've been trying to stay out of the process of getting a deal signed for distribution, but it's just not in my power, and I'm going crazy waiting for it to happen. But it it's actually showed at quite a few film festivals around the world, you know, Tokyo, Australia, you know, Europe. And it's it's gotten great receptions everywhere, and you know, even standing ovations and stuff. It's a really good documentary. I'm I'm shocked as hell at how good it came out. Um, but it's it's tough. Movie business is tough, you know. I think it's probably tougher than the uh than the music business. So we'll have to see. I think it's gonna get at least a limited theatrical release. Uh I know the Alamo Draft House chain, which is like 43 theaters. They're uh they're planning on on showing it. And then as far as streaming, I don't know how that's gonna go. I was supposed to get word this week on uh something happening, and then I never heard anything, so who knows?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Well, there's a lot going on. I mean, it seems like you know, time is flying. You know, we're almost through the month of May. It's like, how'd that happen? But here we are.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Well, you know, when you're old like I am, time does fly. You know, nobody explained that to me when I was 10 years old. Hey, an hour now is is gonna be five seconds when you're 69 years old. Trust me.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I mean, I'm not I'm not as old as you, but I I'm up there and I understand. I do. Um so Charlie Sexton went to the South by Southwest premiere, correct? Yeah. So how do you know Charlie? I remember Charlie from Pictures of Pla uh Pictures of Pleasure, I think it was. And it was a great record. But how did you know?

SPEAKER_02 13:54

He's he's an Austin guy, and um he he did a lot of practicing at the uh what we call the ARC, the Austin rehearsal complex back in the 80s and 90s, and particularly the 90s, and uh which is where my current wife used to work, as if she was one of the ARC girls. But he was he was there, and so I'd run into him, and and he's a super nice guy, really friendly. And uh every time I see him, he's just super fun to be around and and super nice. I can't say enough nice things about Charlie.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah, I was perusing your Instagram and I saw you had a cat too.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

So oh yeah, Milo. He may come. Well, no, he just had his dinner, so he's gonna leave me alone.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah, he I I saw him. He's like, it's a cute kitty. Um, I have a cat. I adopted a cat recently, so he's he may make an appearance when he launches in here. Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Well, I hope he does.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

I don't know because then it'll be total chaos. My other cat who passed in January, she was chill, she'd pot me, want some treats, and that was it. He, on the other hand, is just crazy. But he's a good cat. So when you look at when you look at the documentary and you look back at your time, and yes, I have a dog too. Uh, when you look back at your time going through the film and setting up the documentary, I'm sure you had some approval in it, you just didn't let it go willy-nilly. What was it like watching that and seeing your history?

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Well, I actually learned things that I didn't know, you know, like a particularly uh about Gibby, who uh experienced uh severe childhood trauma that I was not aware of until I saw the documentary. And uh uh that's to to director Tom Stern's credit that you know he spent years interviewing people and interviewing the band. And uh Gibby does great interviews, but he tends to like deflect on questions and gives funny answers and does funny things. And Tom was determined to get to the root of things, and he he just persisted until uh finally he he brought in Bob Forrest, who's an old friend of Gibby's, and and between Tom and Bob Forrest, they were able to get Gibby to open up about uh the reality of what happened to him in his childhood, and um suddenly things made a lot more sense to me about my dear friend Gibby. And uh so I I learned a few things, but it's it's a fun watch because of the editing. You know, one of the things that Tom Stern did was he went out and got a fabulous editor, and I've seen some music documentaries where it's just a lot of talking heads and one after another. Nobody wants to see that shit. And uh Tom just assembled all these, you know, he he probably interviewed 50 people, and you know, maybe 20 of them made the cut, and he would just use little clips here and there, he would tell a story and then just like clip, clip, clip of different people talking about it, and it's really fun and and fun to watch that way. So uh, and I I sort of uh I was with with Tom when we came up with the thought of making the documentary uh about six years ago or so. Uh he got a hold of an old copy of his movie called Freaked. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. Um there's a a short movie on YouTube called uh I can't even remember what it's called, but it features the butthole surfers as a hick family in Texas, and then this this family of husband and wife and their young son uh are coming through Texas and they stop by that and see the butthole surfers, and uh the little kid ends up getting barbecued and served as a as a meal to the parents, and it's it's really cornball stupid, but that was made by Tom Stern and Alex Winter. And so I you know, I've I've known Tom since the 80s. And so we you know, we've had a lot of people approach us about wanting to make a documentary, and I've always been pretty, you know, I you know, I just didn't really want it. I didn't want to see my story, I didn't didn't want it, but then Tom threw his hat in the ring, and all of a sudden it was like, now that makes sense because Tom was a big fan from the very beginning, and he's a comedic writer, and he's really talented, and he's persistent as hell. And uh so what you know, once once he started doing it, um we didn't always see eye to eye on on things, but uh I deeply approve of the work that he did.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Well, that happens sometimes in documentaries. I mean, Pee Wee Herman's documentary, if you watch that, that's a prime example. I mean, he kept saying he didn't want to do it, he didn't want to do it, he did it, and he still held back.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

I haven't seen that, but I I really want to see it because it's a good documentary, it is. I bet it is. I mean, it's a great story, except for the fucking end, you know. That guy got the fucking shaft.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Well, that's what they talked about. They talked about how, you know, the first time he made it through without any problem, and they do explore his collection of it was it was gay images from the past, and that's what really nailed him, and there was no reason for it.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

No, and and and then, you know, masturbating in an adult theater, I mean, isn't that where you want somebody to masturbate? I mean, do you really want them masturbating in the schoolyard? Or no?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

No, and I mean, and that's the he had he beat that, he had a career resurgence, and that's when they nailed him. And it it really goes in depth into a lot of that stuff. But Pee-wee really, he was kind of quiet about not wanting to do some of the stuff about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

I don't blame him. Bless his heart.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah. So I mean, documentaries I think are good. I think you can learn a lot, and it's amazing that you're telling me that you learned something about a bandmate that you didn't even know, a friend that you didn't even know. And I think sometimes sometimes our friends keep our s keep secrets to themselves about about what they go through without letting anybody know, because especially if they've dealt with trauma.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah, I watched an early cut of a year ago, and I got to it got to the end, and it started and it got to the to Gibby's childhood trauma, and I was like, oh no, Gibby's not gonna let this be in the movie. There's just no way. And to his credit, you know, he signed off on it. And I just thought that was super brave of him and and super big of him, and and he is he is a very strong guy, and and so bless his heart. You know, he allowed the story to be told. I just think that was really brave.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I think it's brave, and I think there's also the caveat of possibly maybe somebody else has gone through that and they can relate to it.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

That probably had a lot to do with him signing off.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Have you seen the documentary? I did not see the documentary, I saw the trailer. Okay. And the trailer looked good, so that's why I was kind of curious as to when it might actually come out.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

So that's the the trailers have been pretty good, and the movie is is just like the trailers. It's just bam, bam, bam.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

And that's what you know, if you're watching a documentary, that's where time will fly through it because it is moving so fast paced.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, not all music documentaries turn out that great. I mean, I just I just watched uh recently the Led Zeppelin documentary, the one that ends with uh whole lot of love and and doesn't go beyond that. And you know, that's a band that I've I've loved since I've first time I heard them. And I just thought that could have been a whole lot better. I don't know if you've seen that one.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

No, I have not. But I mean, then you think back to let's go back to the nineties. Behind the music, VH1. You know, that that gave you the scratched surface of it did not really tell you what was going on. It just gave you enough to delete, and that was about it.

unknown 22:14

You know.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Well, one of the problems with that documentary was the fact that they're, you know, the only people that interviewed were the members of the band, the surviving members of the band. And most of them are pretty soft-spoken. So you get these interviews where they would talk like this and you couldn't fucking do what you're saying. I'd be turning the TV up to 10 just to hear what they were saying, and then they'd play music and it would blow my head off. And then after a while, I just couldn't take turning the volume up and down. But you know, it's like, come on, man, you could do better than that.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

And then, of course, once they aired it once, Leif Garrett, how many times did you see that one air? All the time. It was like one of the favorite ones they show. So do you have any plans to go out on the road at all with us? No, none at all. I didn't think so.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

I have plans, I have plans to not go out on the road. We had a screening in Los Angeles at the Egyptian theater last year, and uh we did a we were there for a Q ⁇ A after the movie, and we did a surprise set. We played three songs, and that was a whole lot of fun. You know, I can handle three songs, but uh, you know, playing guitar for an hour or an hour and a half is is harder work than it looks. And I'm not in shape to do that. I don't even have calluses on my fingers anymore. I I hardly ever touch a guitar. And uh I just I kind of feel like I've said everything I wanted to say, and I've seen what I've seen what ACDC looks like playing at the age of 90 or however old they are, and I just I just don't want to be that. You know, it's it's rock and roll is is a young man's game, and we're not young anymore.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Paul McCartney, there you go. That's all you really need to say is Paul McCartney.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

No offense to him, but you know, no offense to him, but I guess you watch Saturday Night Live.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I watch part of it. I I didn't watch all of it, I just watched part of it. I was just kind of like It was brutal. When he was on like 10 years ago, I thought he should stop.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

I mean uh bless his heart, you know. He do it, he's doing it obviously because he loves it, not because he needs the money or anything like that. So so that's cool, but yeah, I'd rather I'd rather just listen to the Beatles that I love from the 60s. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

So you're not gonna tour. So what do you do in your free time now?

SPEAKER_02 24:45

I ride my bicycle and I go swimming and I take my wife to dinner, and uh I do um occasionally I'll produce an album for somebody, and I do you know mixing work from time to time. Nothing nothing too strenuous. I'm just really trying to enjoy life. You know, I know I'm getting old, and there's other things to to life than being in a studio, and I've spent decades in the studio and I've loved every second of it, but I kind of like you know, watching Judge Judy and and uh eating pizza on Friday nights, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Well, and there, you know, when you're talking about producing music, that's a whole nother vibe. You get to be a master of creation in a way. You get to mix it, you get to produce it, you get to create a sound that may be different, and you're not going through all the stress necessarily of it.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

You're not going through the- Well, you know, I I was I was the I produced you know the the early butthole surfer albums, and I didn't know what a producer was. All I knew was I liked recording and I liked being in the studio, and I couldn't get enough of it, and I soaked up as much knowledge of doing it as I could until finally I realized, hey, you know, I could I could do this for another band besides the butthole surfers. And uh back in the mid-80s, I was listening to this band called Bad Livers. It was a sort of a bluegrass, psychedelic bluegrass band from Austin, and I'd go see them play every week at the Saxon pub. And uh finally one evening I told them, hey, if you let me produce an album, I'll I'll pay for studio time, and they agreed. And so that that was my first you know, out, you know, real production job. And uh, you know, it's it's still out, you can still get it. It's it's a good record. But the uh the meat puppets like that record, and they approached me. I was good friends with the meat puppets, and uh they approached me about wanting John Paul Jones to produce an album for them and asked me if I would ask John Paul Jones if he would do it. And I said, sure, because I thought for sure John Paul Jones would would do it. You know, he did the stupid bubble server, surely he'd do the meat puppets. And I'd played the meat puppets for him a lot while we worked together in the studio for a couple of months, and uh he turned him down, and so I I called him up to give him the news and says, sorry man, he doesn't want to do it. And then they said, Well, we like that Bad Livers album. Will you do it? So I was like, Hell yeah, I'll do it. Meat Puppets were my favorite band in the world at that time, and so that was my first paid production job. And then uh after that, uh I kind of had a you know, it had a hit song, a radio hit, and it went gold and all that, and then and so I I was a producer at that point, and then Sublime came along, they liked that Meat Puppets album and asked me if I'd you know work on their self-titled album, and I couldn't believe that. That was a real stroke of luck because I was listening to them, you know, while I was working on the Meat Puppets next album. I was listening to Date Rape on the radio every day and just loving it. And then that was quite a call to get, you know, you want to work with Sublime. It's like, fuck yeah, I want to work with Sublime.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And and saying you you built the career by dare I say, the people you like, they actually resonated towards you. So that's a gift.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah, that was in the analog days, you know, tape and and all of that. And then the and then the digital came along, and I felt like a uh a silent movie actor trying to transition to the talkies. It's it was rough, you know. I I struggled for a while, and I'm you know, I'm finally getting getting my chops down digitally. I have a Pro Tools studio in my house, and and I I do a lot of work. I'm I'm a lot better at it than I was when when I first went digital. That was that was a rough period.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Oh, I'm sure. So when you look back at your touring days, since we're not going to be touring, and I mean your your shows were were known for being a bit over the top at times.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Um yeah, I'm pretty sure I suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder now, and that's probably why I don't want to tour anymore. Because, you know, we we had uh balls of fire on stage and shotgun blasts, and and and that you know, that wasn't just occasionally, that was every night. And uh after a while it kind of gets to you, and uh and then 9-11 came along, and I watched those uh World Trade Center towers coming down and the violence and the horror of it, and all of a sudden it's like I kind of lost my appetite for bedlam at that point. And it's like you know, the belching flames and explosions and things just didn't appeal to me so much after that. So, and that's kind of what we were about. You know, I remember back in like 1991, falling asleep in front of the TV at my house and waking up at two in the morning, the TV was flashing, and I was uh the TV had left it on and the TV was flashing, and I was like, what the hell? And I look up at it and the TV's flashing, and I see balls of flame and uh this horrible racket coming out of the speaker, and I was like, now that's what a a rock show should be. Then I was realized, oh, that's us. You can leave it. You know, it's time to move on.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

You you can leave it to Guar, you know, and people of that nature. And they're because at a certain point, your body is not gonna allow you to do what you used to do. It's an unfortunate thing. Or the mind. This is true. This is true.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yeah, we we we mean we were desperate in the old days. I mean, we didn't have a place to live, and we didn't have money, and uh we you know, we had horrible touring vans that were always breaking down, and just you know, just getting around the country was was just it could be brutal at times. And it was it was fun. You know, eventually we got successful and and got tour buses and all that other stuff, but you know, the the old van days were fun, you know, even though it was hard, it was a it was a fun life. We were all together in a in a little can going down the highway, and every place we stopped, there was a party and all the beer we could drink, and and I still have some fond memories.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

And and that's how it's changed. I talked to a younger artist yesterday, and he was talking about when he's played dates in the U.S. He's like, overseas, they end up giving me a place to stay. I'm fed. They, you know, he's like now, it's like if I play over here in the States, if we don't meet the the door, then we don't get paid, and you know, we may be homeless for the night and we don't get fed. So it's a definitely a different vibe now.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Yeah, we were homeless for a for quite a while. I mean, it was like uh we were lucky, you know, when somebody invited us to sleep on the floor of their house, and so it was like constantly waking up next to somebody's cat box in the morning, and and it at one point Gibby got the flu. I remember that, and you know, nine months later he still had the flu, and it's like just we gotta do something. So, you know, by that point we had enough money to walk into a sporty goods store and we bought us all sleeping bags, okay, and that was a big deal because you know, all of a sudden we had wrapping around us when we slept at night, and uh and then Gibby got over the flu. So that was like the the first milestone for us was getting sleeping bags. That was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And you don't think about those things, you know. Everybody thinks, oh, well, you're the rock star, you're gonna go from the garage. You you may tour a little bit, it's not gonna be that bad, but then you're gonna be coming and playing you know, bigger venues. Maybe you'll play bars, and then you'll play stu you know, theaters, and then stadiums. And it all happens so quickly. You don't have any time to struggle.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

No, and when you're you know sleeping on people's floors, that time passes a lot slower.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

This is true, I can imagine. Um, so what was your favorite gig ever to play as far as venue and other people that were on the bill with you?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Well, I don't this may not qualify, but uh we we got to play on the David Letterman show. Okay, and that was that was at the Ed Sullivan Theater. And you know, when I was six years old, I watched the Ed Sullivan show and saw the Beatles perform. And that was where it's like, Daddy, you gotta buy me an electric guitar. You know, I saw those girls screaming in the audience, and I was like, I gotta get get in on that. And to be able to play on that same stage, that was and and to meet David Letterman and all that other stuff. That was that stood out to me. Other than that, um everything's kind of a blur. You know, that the lot the Lollapalooza experience. We played the first Lollapalooza tour. And up until Lollapalooza, you know, we would tour around and and uh we would load our own equipment, set it up, including the light show and the smoke machines and the movie projectors, and and then tear it down at the end of the night and take acid to drive to the next town so we wouldn't fall asleep. And and uh and then all of a sudden there was Lollapalooza, and there were people there setting up our equipment for us, and all we had to do was just walk onto the stage and play and walk off and drink whiskey with body count and ice tea. That was a lot of fun. I couldn't imagine. Yeah, we got to hang out with a lot of cool bands, you know, Jane's addiction and uh Rollins Band and uh members of Living Color, and that was pretty fun.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Oh, I'm sure. And and it's gotta be, I mean, you getting to be in Ed Sullivan's theater, especially that's a total full circle moment.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, it was it was profound.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

So when you look at okay, here's a prime example of a band that you know we watched Jane's addiction implode recently. What about a year ago now, maybe two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Are you talking about when uh Perry Feller punched out uh Dave Navarro?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Holy, that was oh, I mean bands bands are like marriages, I understand that. Um, and you you there are personal conflicts occasionally, and then if something some substance is involved that can heighten it. But I mean, I at what point, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

I got a I got a call from Perry Farrell a few months ago. He's like, I need a new guitar player, and I was thinking I need Paul Leary, you know, and sent me a song to play guitar on, and I played guitar on it and uh didn't hear bad from him. I guess I wasn't really the guitar player he was looking for.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Possibly you may have dodged a bullet, so that's oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

I mean, the first thing I thought of is dude, gosh, do I really want to get punched out on stage if my guitar is too loud? No, no, no, no. And why aren't why aren't those guys using in-air monitors? I mean, then you know, they don't they don't even need to have loud guitars on stage, they could just be direct.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Because some people don't like in-air monitors, I've heard.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Well, I've never used them because I you know I'm terrified that there'll be an audio event that would destroy my eardrums. I've known people that have got had had that happen with headphones, and you know, that's that's probably the worst part about recording studios is wearing headphones.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yeah, I can imagine. So you know, and what I was gonna say about you know Jane's addiction, it's like they got together to do this reunion tour. The fans were were hot for it. But at what point are you just forcing something as far as being in a band? I mean, you you gotta know when to say when. I hate to say it. Right?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah, I'm sure those guys uh were set to make a whole bunch of money. That's which is that could be a lot of fun to think about. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

It can be. So when you look back to the height of your fame, do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, um, you know, when we were when we were on Capitol Records, we were signed to that label by Hale Milgram, who was a super great guy and a music guy, and he loved the butthole servers, and he wanted us on their label. And so that was great to be signed by a label where the president dug us and wanted us on the label. And we worked, got to work with John Paul Jones and put out an album, and then uh and then suddenly Hale Milgram is fired, and they bring in Gary Gersh, who I think came from Geffen Records and was writing on the success of Nirvana at Geffen Records. And Gary was not so into the butthole surfers. And uh I can remember being super disappointed after Pepper came out that we didn't get a second single off that album. And I was I was kind of pissed off about that. And then Gary Gersh calls me up when we're in the studio recording after the astronaut, and he goes, Uh, I really want to use one of these songs that you're working on for uh a Hellboy movie, and it'd be on the soundtrack album and and be featured and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, you know, I really wish we got that second single that I wanted so bad. And and now you want us to donate one of our songs to to sell a soundtrack album. I wanted I want to sell our album, you know, and and so I I turned them down, and that was probably gonna stay because I think that that may have had something to do with them dropping us as well, that I was not easy to work with for them. So there's you know, there's there's regrets like that, but otherwise, not too much.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Well, and Hellboy did do pretty well.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Yeah, it's a great movie. You know, I'd I would have loved to have you know listened to our song in that movie. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking. That was stupid.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

It's I I get where you were coming from, though. I mean, you why donate something when you just wanted a single for your your record to come, another single. I mean, your priority was getting your name and your music out, but to give it away.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

You know, it would probably it would have probably been really good for us too. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

It might have been. I mean, you know, I don't care. All I have to do, I don't I know people that haven't even listened to the butthole surfers, and it's like I was talking to somebody today and I'm like, yeah, I'm interviewing somebody from the butthole surfers. She's like, I'm supposed to know that name. I know I know that name, but like so we talked about it. But it was it was funny because even if she didn't know the music, she knew the name. And that's that's one thing when you have an iconic name like that, no matter what, somebody's gonna pick up on the name.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Surfers. She does she she wasn't into it.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

So what would she do? Say, my son's ban, um, the surfers.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

She wouldn't even get to that point. I mean, it uh you know, people friends, family friends would go over to the house and say, Oh, how's Paul doing? And she just wouldn't say anything. She took took all the pictures of me down that were, you know, in the house. She took them all down, and I think she just tried, you know, for a while tried to pretend that I, you know, didn't exist. But I I don't really blame her. You know, nobody wants their son to grow up in the to be in the butthole surfers. She was just super straight laced.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Well, that would be hard to to have somebody be super straight laced. And yeah, I I kind of had a mom that was conservative, and yeah, she didn't understand me either. So I get it. I get it. As long as I was the conforming little girl, then that was fine. But when I dyed my hair jet black and wore all black clothes, I had a problem. I wasn't goth, but you know, I looked goth.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Mother, mothers and daughters.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Yes, yes. Mothers and daughters that don't see eye to eye, and yeah, mm-mm. Not a good thing. So, out of all the songs that are on this record, because I I know you also worked with the cover, you did the cover art, you and Gibby. Um, but what songs really stand out to you on this that are you were really proud of on this recording?

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Um, there's one called uh I Don't Have a Problem, which was one of the songs that Hollywood Records cut from the from the album that they released. And so I'm very proud to have that finally coming out. And it was one of those songs where we came up with it in the studio. You know, the King and Gibby and I walked into a studio in in Austin, and we all kind of had our own parts on hard drives and floppy disks and whatnot. But then there was a couple of songs that we just kind of put together on the fly in the studio, and that's always a lot of fun to do. And King showed up to the studio one day with this device that would intercept cell phone conversations. It was illegal to have, but he had one. And we turned it on, and all of a sudden there's this guy talking and and uh talking about how he has knives and daggers, or women have knives and daggers, and just going on and on, and it was just so funny. We just put a microphone off up to it and recorded it as quick as we could, and so we get get a song that's I have no idea who's doing the vocals on it. But that's that's kind of butthole servers. On our very first album, we had a drummer that I don't even know his name, and I never knew his name. You know, we we didn't we didn't have a drummer at the time we we recorded our first record. Our drummer and bass player had quit the band, and so it was just Gibby and I, and we were we had a record deal with alternative tentacles, and we were in the studio, and we were doing our best to try to talk friends into coming over and play the drums for us, and you know, once they did it, they didn't want to come back. And uh we were making racket in the studio one day, and there's a knock on the door, and we answered it, and there's this short guy with sideburns and disco shoes and bell bottom pants, and he goes, Hey man, I'm from New York, I'm a drummer, I heard noise, and I was wondering if y'all need anybody to play drums. And it's like, yeah, as a matter of fact, we do. And and so he came in and and we pulled up the song uh called Hey. I don't know if you're familiar with our first record, but it's sort of a it's sort of a a pop song, you know. The first song is a raucous punk song, and then we went to a a sweet melodic pop song in in Hey, and he recorded drums for that. And he insisted on recording every drum one at a time, starting with the hi hat. Okay, you know. start with a hi hat and then the kick drum and then the snare and and then he walked out of the studio before we even got his name and uh you know that's I like that song a lot and it's just weird that you know we have people on our records that that that we don't even know who they are and the same thing with uh locust abortion technician you know I was we were living in Winterville Georgia in a house we the band had a house and I think I think I was up on acid one night and then everybody else went to sleep and I wanted to record we had a tape machine we we put in this giant eight track tape machine and we had two microphones and a tape machine and so the the band while they're asleep I was like I I didn't want to wake anybody up so I like pulled out my transistor radio and turned it on and immediately there's this old lady talking on on the radio and so I put a microphone and hit record as fast as I could and and uh got her talking about how ours are salted sexually and ever since then I can't sleep I've been having trouble sleeping and and uh and that became the the lyrics that became the the singing on a song on that on that album and that's a lot of people's favorite album is Locust Abortion Technician and uh it's a it's it's it's a stupid song really super stupid but it's heavy and uh I like I just like random things that happen that you're not planning on and you just gotta be ready to hit the record button and capture things. So I don't like again I don't even remember your question.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

No that's fine and and the funny thing is we're gonna say you know well then firstly you would definitely like the way we have our society where you can quickly record things at a whim because of us having phones. But I was gonna say back to that drummer that wanted to record each drum individually I'm wondering what he might have been on at the time walking into the studio all slick like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

I'm just wondering if he wasn't on something I don't recall him seeing you know him being stoned or anything but I'm sure Gibby and I were stoned that was the one thing we could all we could always afford pot.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Well and and I I've I learned from my late husband uh about actually about seven years ago now uh it is no longer Indiana ditchweed as he would call it you know because he was he liked pot he stopped smoking and then he when he started getting terminally ill he wanted to be medic do medical marijuana and it's like okay so he's he's imbibing and he we go and get the the the stuff from the the store he's imbibing and he's taking the normal like what he would do with the old school Indiana ditch weight that's not that potent I'm like I'm gonna go upstairs and write he's like babe can you sit down with me I'm like what do you mean hold my hand oh no he wanted me to hold his legs because everything was pixelating oh boy it was moving around I'm like sure babe I'll sit right here and hold your legs down he ended up vomiting because he he hit too much oh gosh so he he's like this stuff's not like what I'm used to I'm like obviously not no much more potent than it used to be but yeah the the we were always smoking the potent stuff we would just go to Seattle just for the purpose of getting into you know in Northern California where they had weed that tasted like cherry cough syrup oh wow okay I miss those weeds well weed is definitely different than it used to be I mean it's it's definitely it's not as tame and I wasn't and wasn't one to use it and I rarely use it if I do but I do edibles I don't smoke it so yeah I do edibles from time to time but it's it's not the same.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

You know I I do edibles because I'm in chronic pain and um so you you understand but it's it does help you know it's it's it beats the hell out of oxycodon or any of those other things. Oh yeah but uh but I I had to I had to stop smoking just you know my lungs just couldn't take it if I took a hit I would be coughing my head off and that's just like I had to stop so and and also I would smoke a little and just start getting paranoid and stuff. It's like in the old days I couldn't smoke enough.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I mean I was no matter how strong it was I was just gonna smoke as much as as someone would let me and I for me if I if if I do an edible for like three days in a row if I do it for the fourth day I start feeling my mood go in the crapper. I start tanking as far as depression it's like no can't do that. So I'll deal with the pain I just live with the pain.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

So I understand I completely get it so if you what do you have plans for this summer then I mean I know you're working on getting the documentary out so are you producing anybody this summer um no the last album I produced was by a a fellow named Gus Inglehorn and that record just came out uh a few weeks ago and uh I'm really proud of that record I had a blast making that record with him and his wife and uh his music is awesome and then um I'm mixing an album for uh an old band from Austin called Corn Pone it's a terrible band name but uh such a band from butthill surfers yeah that's that's why I can say that I know I just but yeah this there was a band and uh you know they were sort of peers of ours in Austin and their guitar player died of an overdose and uh that was ye many years ago and and the the singer decided he wanted to put an album out that they recorded and never put out and and it was never mixed so I'm I'm mixing an album for them and that's a lot of fun because there's no time pressure and I just kind of work a couple hours a day and take a day off if I need to and and uh um the singer Anthony is a lot of fun to work with he's he's enjoying the mixes that makes it fun when when the manager mixing likes the mixes you do you know it doesn't always work out like that but other than that I'm you know riding my bike and going swimming you know it's just nothing gets better than that.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

How's the heat down there?

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Well um it's gonna be bad but at the moment it just started raining it's raining outside right now I can hear it um you know it's been a really nice day uh we've had a few hot days but um you know once it gets really hot then I just have to ride my bike early in the morning and then take naps in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Nothing wrong with that because I mean the one thing we don't realize as kids or younger people is heat zaps you especially the older you get heat takes it out of you completely.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Yeah I used to I used to love uh jogging and riding a bike when it was 105 degrees and that would just absolutely kill me now if it was you know 95 degrees it would kill me I I can't take it at all I understand I so understand so is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to add no unless you want me to grab my cat and bring him over here that's up to you if you want your kid no problem give me your Milo let's see Milo it's gonna be okay buddy he's beautiful yeah he's he's a lot of fun we got him from the uh feral cat association of San Antonio as a kitten and uh my wife and I have had this is our third cat the other cats you know were adults when we got them and and we've had wonderful cats and this one's also a wonderful cat but since we raised him from a kitten you know we it's like he's our boy yeah mine I got from the shelter um my cat before that was my neighbor's cat who wandered over to my house and didn't want to leave that yeah our previous cat was was that the neighbor one day came over and said hey our our cat spent a lot of time at your house uh do you want him you know they had they had eight other cats and he wasn't getting enough food to eat and he was getting beat up and and they love they loved that cat a lot it wasn't like they were indifferent to it but they they wanted what was best for him and he was he came over and and and he adopted us and he was he was a pretty spectacular cat.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yeah Chloe they ended up she kept coming over to the house and she the owner took her back and finally one day she's just like I don't know what to do I'm like it's up to you she came home from work and I came by the time we got back home because we saw her at work she's like she hissed at me this morning I'm like I don't know what to say as soon as we got back home she was sitting on our front stoop and that was it she made a made a decision yeah and in fact when I moved here because I they have rules about how many pets you can have they're like you're only allowed three animals or two animals and I had two dogs I'm like okay so now your contraband cat that's it because I'm not getting rid of my cat who's like 17 years old I'm not doing that no 17 wow yeah she was up there and she was a she was a sweetheart but yeah so if there's nothing else I guess sir I thank you for your time and coming on the show.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

Well thank you for having me on it's a pleasure talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Talking to Paula it's kind of amusing when he said that his mom kind of took the pictures down and didn't really want to acknowledge and I mean it's kind of weird when you think about that although you know as much as my mom and I didn't get along I think if I were being a successful musician my mother would have been like oh yes this is my daughter because no matter how many times her and I didn't get along if I had achieved something then she would be all about it. And well that was her. But I think you know this is when you when he talks about that moment of coming full circle and that's the way I describe it but you know being a kid and watching the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and then turning around and getting to stand there on that same stage it's got to be an awe-inspiring moment. You know when anytime we've come full circle in our life I think it's one of the bigger deals for us because you know you've completed this cycle and I remember and I've talked about this before when I you know there was a time back in 1993 and I had already met met this person I had already met my idol and I got him to sign my program i he had already signed a program but this time I got a picture with him and I remember thinking wow this is so cool and da da da but then fast forward so basically almost 30 years because it was 2022 and 1993 is when I got my had my picture with the program in my hand and I think that's what the bizarre thing is in that picture you can see that I have a tour program in my hand and so here it is you know almost 30 years to the day and he has my book in his hand and that was kind of a full circle moment because it was kind of like all those years of listening to his music I got to you know I was inspired I it meant something to me it it I enjoyed it. And for me to be able to turn around and hand him a book which I hope he enjoyed I'll never know but being able to be in that experience that full circle that now I had achieved this and he seemed pleased that when I gave it to him but it's that moment of look how far you've come on a journey. And I don't want to say it's the fool's journey the hero's journey however you want to talk but it's a journey you're on from that moment to the end piece it's like look how far I've come look how far I've grown look how much I've grown and look what I've achieved and I think sometimes we look pat we don't look at those achievements and think wow okay I did this we kind of move past it in and don't settle in. But I'm pretty sure that Paul sat there and really did take that moment in. I mean not only was he in the at Sullivan theater he was meeting David Letterman and at the time David Letterman was a pretty big deal he's still he still you know people still know who he is but it's not the same and I think being able to get back the record and make it into something that you want to make it into especially as a creative I I've I know authors that they signed a publishing deal and the publisher changed things for their book. You can't put the scene in there you can't have this cover. And then when they finally get the rights back they do what they want to do. That's one of the reasons why I have not even bothered trying to pursue to get an agent because I want to keep my creative control. And maybe that's bad but that's where I am at in my my writing life. And even with the podcast you know I've talked to people about AI that's like yeah I could get a co-host why would I want to do that? If people like the show that's what matters and I try to keep it as real as possible. I like that Paul was willing to go back in time with me and talk about being in the van and and yeah as a tour musician sometimes you don't have much and there's stories from many musicians about that. But the thing is we don't usually see those stories. When it's portrayed in movies or books we go from that moment of just trying to just the struggling musician lands the record deal to suddenly they're touring and they're they're on a bus and they have all the it's not always that easy. There's a lot of work and usually as most people know by now overnight success is not overnight success. And to be able to still be in the business for this long even though they're not touring they're still putting a record out that's a lot. If you want to check out the documentary I have not seen the full documentary but I've seen clips of it and it's really it's really good from what I saw. So I would definitely check it out when it comes out and it's available. But on that note I thank you guys for tuning in I thank Fast Susie for the intro and outro music. I thank Paul for coming on the show and uh the Butthole Surfer's new record comes out June 26th. So check it out it is um after the astronaut so definitely check it out if you get chance and uh I thank you guys whether it be morning noon or night or evening whenever you're listening I truly truly do appreciate it and I'll catch you next time guys bye