SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to the Better Two Podcast. I'm your host, Donna. Today's guest is Amy Gaskin. Amy has a book out called Marilyn Forever. Marilyn Monroe is a symbol of hope. This year actually marks the 100th birthday of Marilyn. And in honor of that, I'm releasing this episode today. This episode, though, is even though we talk a lot about Marilyn Monroe, it's more about the impact she's had on others' lives, including myself. So we talk about that. We talk about another project dealing with a Holocaust survivor. And so much more. So tune in. Hi, Amy. How are you doing today? Fine. How are you doing, Donna? I am doing good. I am doing good. I'm kind of, you know, when Ray told me that he was, you know, he he sent me this email, and I had to laugh because he doesn't know this about me. He sent me this email, it's like, I guess I think you'll love it. I'm like, okay. And I look and I see it's about Marilyn Monroe. He doesn't know that about me. And back, and neither does my audience, but back in the late 80s, early 90s, I was very much a Maryland fan. I collected books, I collected uh, I had dolls and movies, of course. And I and I will say one of the corniest things that helped Marilyn helped me get through when I was working graveyard shift at a drinking straw factory. You couldn't hear anything. You could not hear anything. So here I am, making, you know, putting the straws and bins and singing Marilyn Monroe songs at the top of my lungs. Nice. Because that was the only way I could get through it. It was like, yeah, there was other things, but there was something about singing a show tune. So Marilyn, in a way, helped me get through. I used to have this one poster that had like five pictures of her. And my friend, my roommate and I went out of town, and somebody was watching our apartment, and the poster had fallen off the wall, and he put like a note on it saying, I tried to resuscitate her, but I couldn't. So it was kind of just this whole this whole thing. I dressed like Marilyn for Halloween. And of course, when I did go out to Hollywood, I did put my hands and my feet in her footprints and handprints. I did not go to the cemetery. And the reason, you know, I just didn't want to at the time. But you have gone to the cemetery.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I have quite a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

And that instantly involved you to create Marilyn Forever, correct?

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yes. So about it. Yeah. So I um I am a photographer and journalist. And that's first and foremost what I do. And I'm always curious, always looking for stories that might not otherwise be told if I, you know, wasn't there to document them. And it was the height of the COVID pandemic. And I happened upon her crypt. A friend had told me we were just discussing, you know, what would, you know, photo projects, what could you do for a project? And he said, Oh, you can do the, you know, there's some magazines they do like the dead man story. I said, What? So that's like where a magazine will like trace the steps of Jesus and show today all of the places that they might have been and and show us, like in today's time, here are the places that some somebody was. And I was like, I we don't have Jesus in LA. Like, I couldn't imagine what this would be. So anyway, I was thumbing through an old Hollywood tour book and I said, Hey, uh, Marilyn Monroe has a lot of addresses that are in my neighborhood. And I didn't know that. And it turns out that she's buried very near where I live. So I went to the hospital where she was born, at least the area where it was. And then I headed over to the cemetery, and I was so surprised to find wet lipstick kisses. And this is back when we were all afraid to touch our groceries. Remember that? Yeah. So I just I it was the only one in the cemetery that was like that. And prior to this, I didn't know very much about Marilyn. I'd maybe seen parts of her movies. I I just didn't know about her either way, you know. So I started spending time in the cemetery. And when people would um come to the grave after they were finished, you know, I would I would talk to them and just ask them, you know, what is it about Marilyn that brought you here today? And they would tell me. And what was so surprising was that their reasons for coming to the crypt had very little to do with her stardom. They had to do with her overcoming so much in her life. And there was some thread from her story that they personally related to. So whether it was, you know, people would tell me that they were adopted and Marilyn herself had lived in foster care and an orphanage, and she lived in many different places as a child. Like if you only knew that, you would say, wow, she went through a lot. There were people who told me, I really admire how, you know, she started her own production company. I didn't know that. And there were all these different threads that people were relating to, but they were regarding her personal story. It was not her stardom. And I never in my wildest dreams imagined that I would make a book from this. I mean, it started with lipstick, seeing lipstick on a crypt, literally. And then it just led um all of the images in the book somehow have an origin at the crypt. Whether it's somebody that I met there, and then they told me about how they love Maryland, and then maybe something they had in their home. And then I would go to their home and photograph that, or a story about, like, there's a woman who has a story about, you know, getting a Maryland tattoo. I went and photographed that happening, but I met all the people at the crypt, or they it was a tip from somebody at the crypt, like, I know so-and-so, or you could go to this place and you'll find, you know, there will be amazing photos or something like that. But it it all started at the crypt.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

And that's an interesting thing in itself that yes, during COVID, we were all kind of, yeah, we have to social distance, we can't touch things, but hey, let me put my lip prints on this piece of granite. Um, but that's the thing though, it's a community, it's it's a fandom. And I interviewed Ray a while back, and he's been in the PR game for quite a while, and he was talking about the fact that fandom does not exist like it used to. And in the 80s and the 90s, you had, you know, you had like two or three figures that you would go into Spencer's or wherever, and you would see their posters. There was Marilyn Monroe, there was James Dean. And, you know, there were these stars that were from yesteryear, but they still were iconic. People still looked at them. And you don't necessarily see that now. And even, you know, I'm I'm surprised that there are so many Maryland fans still, because you don't see that as much. Online, she's not um, dare I say, the goddess that she was. And I appreciated, and this is this is her rival, of course, um, which that I don't think really was the case, which was Jane Mansfield when Marishka did Jane's her mom's story.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

And the sad thing, especially like in Hollywood, is because I heard recently that they want to tear down Marilyn's house to put something else in. You know, they tore down Jane Mansfield house. This has historic pieces. There's history in these pieces and places, but yet we're just dismissing it. And I think that's that's one of the reasons why your book is great because there are still people that are willing to carry her legacy on. And yeah, she was more than the dumb blonde. She was not a dumb blonde at all. Just like Jane Mansfield, she was not a dumb blonde either. But Hollywood wanted us to see them as this helpless little girl. Right. And that's the thing, it's like they weren't. And I think the trauma that the they went through, especially being in the Hollywood machine, because that's somebody, something that we don't talk about as much now. We don't talk about the Hollywood machine. But the things that Marilyn had to do to to become Marilyn, you know, Norma Jean Baker had to be transformed into what they wanted. And at a certain point, you have to swallow part of yourself and play the game.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

So it really seems, you know, there was there was a part that she played, you know, that was you know, in so many of her movies, and people forget that that's somebody that's a part that they played. Right. When we look at, say, Lucy LaBall and Desi Lu Productions, Lucy Lucy lived long enough to to where people came to understand her more as a person. But when we think of Desire Productions, we don't think that, you know, of oh, she was just, you know, a bumbling, plotting redhead, right? People see her as a business person. And I wonder if Marilyn had lived longer, if people would have been able to realize these other facets of her, because she did die so young.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

It's hard to decide because I think it's an evolution now that we're able to separate the actor from the roles they play more now. Because good point. Um, when I look at, I have a Fonzie coffee mug back there. When I look at Henry Winkler back in the day, he was Fonzie. Everybody knew him as Fonzie. And so my grandmother, she she took us to the Superdome to see the Bacchus parade because he was the Grand Marshal. He was the king of Bacchus that year. And everybody was chanting Fonzie, and he got annoyed with it. I mean, this is at the height of it. He got annoyed with it. And I'm sure at that time he was terrified that he was going to be typecast as this role. And when you look at Mark Hamill back in the day, you look at Carrie Fisher, they they tried to break out, but they were always pigeonholed at that time. Now though, I mean, Mark Hamill has found another career, Henry Winkler found another career. All of them were able to branch out. I'm sure Carrie Fisher could have branched out more too. But the fact, and she did as a writer, but I think at a certain point, especially by old Hollywood standards, we feed, we feed the machine. You do what we say, you're not allowed. You're gonna be typecast. I don't care if you want to be a drama queen, you're not going to. And even when you look at Jane Mansfield, she did a movie called The Wayward Bus, where she she it's a drama on a bus with Joan Collins. But that was the only time she ever really got to do that drama because they wanted her to be the blonde, the buxom blonde. Something and I mean Marilyn had her moments, you know, uh the river of no return. That was kind of a drama drama, but it still was her playing a blonde. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

I think that's you know, that's something that for me, you know, the project is is really about how does she live on in people's memory? How have they woven that woven Marilyn into the fabric of their own lives? And that's what I find so beautiful. I can't imagine, I mean, if she were alive today, I I mean, I never met her, obviously, but like I would think, I mean, anybody who had this kind of a reaction and love from fans would be astonished. Oh, yeah. You know, just hundreds of people. And it's also like the people that I photographed, many of them don't know each other, right? So it's it's so many very personal stories, which is I find very beautiful. This isn't people, I mean, not that people might not purchase a mug in a souvenir shop on Hollywood Boulevard, right? Sure, that will happen. But this was people relating to her on a personal level that seemed in many cases very private. And that I find really different from when I think of the word, you know, fandom, right? I don't think of it as much with this group. It may well fit, but this is an aspect of it that is very personal for people, which that is what drew me to the story is how personal it was and how it wasn't about her stardom. It was about overcoming. And for so many people, like even your own story, you know, it was Marilyn songs that kept me going. It's like Marilyn is this helper to overcome something that's difficult, right? Whether it's a late night shop in your factory, late night shift, sorry, in your factory, or you know, the later chapter where we have people who have had their lives touched by cancer. Marilyn? I'm like, Marilyn Monroe, how is this even possible? She didn't have cancer. But it's the idea that, oh, okay, we can swim in the ocean uh dressed as Marilyn. Look what she overcame. We're gonna overcome cancer together. That I find just so beautiful that um I can't imagine a more beautiful legacy for anybody to leave. I think it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

It is, it is. And and the other act, the other person I didn't mention was Elvis. Elvis was in that that trilogy of people. And I went to Graceland back in the 90s, and it's different than it is now. But I'm not sure that the people have the same connection as what you're describing with Marilyn.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

I I think yeah, I think that's correct. I have met people who say, oh, it's like Elvis. And then I've talked to them more, and I'm like, wait a minute, it's it's not exactly like Elvis. This is very personal. There may be Elvis people who relate to him on a deep level. I just have never interviewed them. They might exist, but this is this is something very, very deep and very personal. And I feel like it's very relatable. We all have something that we have gone through in our lives that was difficult. Nobody gets through life having everything easy. I don't care who you are, right? And and it's that. I mean, even when they were um on the verge of demolishing her house, and the city councilwoman dressed as Marilyn and went in front of the city council um uh, you know, uh to the hearing and stopped stopped the demolition just temporarily, right? And I then um met her later on that day and interviewed her, and she said, I think why this house, something along the lines of, you know, I think one of the reasons this house is so important is that many people have their own inner Maryland. And she used that phrase. And and I I just was dumbfounded because here she is, and she said, Oh yeah, I used to, I think she told me something about she dressed as her as Halloween or something like that. But but it was the idea of the of the inner Maryland, right? And I just found that to be very beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

There was there, she was just this icon. I mean, there was something that gave you hope, even though she had such a horrendous life. Look where, you know, like you said, where did she come from? What did she overcome? And uh ultimately, you know, then there's the the mystery surrounding her death. You know, there that's a whole other side. But she was an intelligent woman, and I think that's the other reason that they have hope and that they've connected with because there were manufacturing blondes all over the place back then.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Yeah, they were.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah. But she had the it factor, she had the wow factor. But you know, son kind of like the moth to the flame, the people that she wanted to know that she fell in love with weren't necessarily always the best. And and that's that's another but that's another relatable way because the woman who finds herself in love with somebody and he is not who he appears to be. There are many women like that that can relate to that story. And you know, I did learn something in your book because I thought, you know, somebody was still doing the whole flower thing, you know, because that was the big thing with Joe DiMaggio is still putting flowers on her grave. No, yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Right. Yes, yes. So, so the Joe DiMaggio story is definitely, you know, outlined there. And um it's it's it's really beautiful. I mean, I look at what you know, what is the project, right? What was what am I doing when I in the middle of all of it? And it's like I really realize that I'm photographing love. Love for somebody who's died. And normally that's that's nearly impossible to photograph. The person's not here. And love is what is love? You you can't, what are you gonna go take a picture of, right? If I say photograph love, photograph whatever, like these those those type of themes, they're very, very difficult to photograph. And I think that, you know, collectively, when I started seeing like how different avenues, I must say avenues of Maryland, but like in the middle of the pandemic, the city of Palm Springs was installing what was being stalled in the city by uh a resorts group that paid a lot of money to bring the statue to Palm Springs. And I'm like, wait, why Maryland? Right? We're still on lockdown. And I interviewed them, the person who was the head of bringing it in. It was like, she'll be a magnet for businesses, she's gonna save downtown from the pandemic. I'm like, Marilyn is gonna do that, like what? Okay, being not here anymore, like, you know, alive, she will do that. And he's just like, yes, she's she's our girl. Like, that's how we're gonna, that's how the city's gonna bounce back. We're gonna put Marilyn in the middle of town and we will, you know, we're gonna overcome this. And I was like, okay. And just to photograph that, I mean, just the idea that that was the answer, you know, or going to the um Chinese theater, the famous courtyard with the hand prints that you mentioned. And, you know, normally you can go in there freely, you can touch the handprints. And there's the movie theater, right? It's in front of a movie theater for people who are watching that aren't from Los Angeles. So, so they couldn't have like nowhere could have any movies going. You couldn't go indoors, and due to virus concerns, you could not touch the cement anymore. So that was not allowed, but they decided to bring out a Maryland mannequin, and people could stand next to her for a fee and get their pictures taken. And I'm thinking, wait, why Marilyn? How was she the one who was chosen for this photo op? Right? Like it was just this theme of Marilyn, even walking through on Hollywood Boulevard, and it was it was nearly empty, right? The plane, the planes weren't flying, and so many stores had pushed their Marilyn souvenirs to the front, right? Like if I go to Hollywood Boulevard today, you don't see as many. I mean, you see Marilyn. Marilyn's a Hollywood girl, right? So certainly she's you can find her on Hollywood Boulevard in you know, souvenir shops and and such. But but during this time, it seemed like she was really, really visible. And and that was a thing. I mean, it wasn't like there was a meeting, okay, what are we gonna do? The fellow in Palm Springs, he's got he's installing the statue with cranes and lifts and the whole bit. I mean, it's a it was a big deal. And she continues to be such a such a symbol of hope uh for so many people, which I I love that. I think it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

There's a picture that we talked about before we got on air that you took, and it's it's of that statue installation, and somebody is cleaning your her at night, and there's the the hose being, you know, the water stream is hitting her face. And granted, yes, I know it's a statue, but it it encompasses the joy that face in just the lighting and everything. Granted, some people could take take the picture somewhere else, but there's something about the joy and the cleanliness of the picture and the brightness of the picture, even though it's at night, there's still this positivity. And I think maybe that's the whole thing. It's this encompassing of this positive energy. And I and to your point, you were saying you don't know, you know, she's gone. And this is a conversation I had recently with somebody. Um Jules Peters. She was the wife of Mike Peters and the Alarm. And the reason I bring this up is she had lost Mike a year ago. And I lost my husband six years ago. And I've been told, well, you need to let him go. You need to move on. But see, that's the thing about death. You're talking about photographing gro photographing love. Even though my husband is gone, I still love him. I'm always going to love him. And there'll be times when I react, my face is going to be either happy or sad when I'm talking about him. Because there's great moments of joy and there's great moments of sadness. And it's the same thing, I think, with you know, when I was talking to Jules, she brought up that, you know, because she's only she just hit a year. And she talked about joy. She talked about sadness. And I think when we talk about Marilyn, there are those moments that she may have gotten us through, dare I say, like Dumbo's magic feather. She got us through those dark times. You know, putting in a movie and watching her be silly. And, you know, who hasn't, I mean, I don't know about you, but most people have have had that walking across a grate in the sidewalk and stopping and go, ooh, isn't it delicious? I mean, you know, it it's one of those things that's ingrained in us. And I think that's a moment of joy and a moment of happiness. But these are all the those little things that if you don't if you're not a hardcore fan and you haven't looked at it, you think her life was okay. She managed to the the adoption story. But if you there was a lot of darker aspects that she survived. And ultimately, you know, that's why her death is somewhat depending on who you talk to, is questionable.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Definitely there's I think there are things that we will never, you know, they will never know about her. And um but I I I do like and when I when I think of that image, that is one of the early, early images from the series. And it it was this feeling of hope, you know, and I will say, so that image, um, it was the middle of the it was the middle of the night. And the reason it was the middle of the night was pretty unusual. Normally they would never be doing that in the middle of the night. But I had gone to the construction site, I had talked with them in advance and you know, had all the okay's and the hard hat, the whole bit. And so I was there for a week, but it just so happened that it was the middle of a record-breaking heat wave in Palm Springs. It was 122 degrees, and it was so hot that we had these wooden chairs on the construction site, and the glue in the chairs melted. Oh, and they turned in, that's when you know it's too hot, and they turned into like kindling, like just piles of wood, right? And I'm like, that's a sign. Maybe you shouldn't have your camera out in this. But but anyway, so a lot of the work had to be done overnight because it was a hundred and something in the middle of the night. It wasn't like it was a cool night, but the difference between 120 to 102 is a big difference, 20 degrees difference.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

And so I asked them, you know, I knew that if they ever went near the face, so there was so much, the statue was in two halves, and there was so much just being done on the ground while she was in two halves. And her face was covered up for many of the days with this big tarp. And I said, Well, well, you know, once once we, once they got her all like upright, right? And there was no tarp over her, and she was in, so she came in two halves, right? So she was, you know, one on top of the other, and she just looked like how she does today. At least that was the structure of her, still wrapped up in certain places. But I said, Are you are you ever gonna be going, you know, near her face, right? And they said, Oh, if we do, it's gonna maybe maybe 20 seconds during the whole week. I said, Do you do you know when that's gonna be? They said, No, we really don't. We don't know. And they honestly didn't know. They weren't faking me out, they would have told me they know. And there was this one night that um, you know, because we did work during the day, so there's very little time to sleep. It was because the the for me, because the crew would kind of spell each other off. And it was about, I don't remember if it was about three o'clock in the morning. I had gone back to my room to get a couple hours of sleep. And somehow I had woken up in the middle of the night. I had my alarm set for like really, really early morning. It would still be dark, but much later. And I ran outside and I saw, I looked down the street and I saw lights on the construction zone. I'm like, oh my gosh, they're there because they must have woken up and decided that they could do some more. So, and they didn't want to call me because they don't want to wake me up. So, so I just grabbed my camera, went down running down the street, and I saw they are literally bat shot. They are spraying her face and it's in the dark, and they're on a cherry picker, and the guy, it's she's only being illuminated by the headlamp.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

That's on that the that the worker is wearing, and he's spraying her, and he's going like this back and forth. So the statue itself was blinking.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Oh, wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

It was like a, you know, um yeah, it's exactly what it was. And so it was blinking, and I'm just like screaming, they're in hazmat suits. I don't have a hazmat suit because they're spraying chemicals or like clear coating her. It's a substance that they're, it's like um, I think it was almost like a clear nail polish. I'm not positive how how it worked, but but in any event, that is that is the shot. And and you know, and then it was over. And and and I'd been there for a week. But um, people were like, oh, how did you do that? Did you set that up? I'm like, no, nothing is set up. You know, the only time that there is a posed situation is like a portrait, right? That is the journalism ethics, nothing's photoshopped in, whatever you see is real. Um, so, but that I always felt like, wow, it was it was like this beacon in the dark. You know, it was really very, it was very, very beautiful. And I didn't know for a few days. I didn't look at the images. I was taking my memory cards out, you know, putting them on the desk in the hotel, and then just, you know, filling off and going the next day. I wasn't always checking because it was sort of this round the clock thing. But when I thought, I was really, really thrilled to have captured that.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

What was it like when you got to see her earrings?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

That was very, very that was incredible. So there um there are a number of people who, you know, as we know, do collect things that she actually owned and wore. And I remember when um they were taken out of a case and they were being shown to somebody, and you know, she she put them on and just watching her face light up, but but even watching them hit the light, there was something, something about that. And and you know, there seems to be really just a presence that and and and there's also such a high regard that people have for her and things that she owned, and there's a lot of respect shown to that. And um, so I really appreciated that.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Which came out when Kim Kardashian wore her dress to the Met.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, yeah, that was something, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah, there was a lot of people upset about that. And and rightfully so. I mean, that was an iconic dress, it's not something to play with.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

It's a it's a tricky, you know, it's a it's a tricky thing. I mean the you know the dress is at the time I believe they still own it, um, was was not owned by a museum.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

No.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

And so, you know, it was their right to do that. And but how people feel about it has been really, really, um, really something to watch the um the fallout from that. Oh yeah, you know, and just people coming together to protect her memory in that way is really, really remarkable. Well, and I go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

No, it's just it's just really something. And I I think it's also because in the fan in the fans' minds also, it's like you're not you're not her and you're never going to be her. And stepping into her clothes, there's never gonna be another Maryland.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

There will not be. No, there's only one Maryland.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

So your trip ended up taking you overseas, because you mentioned the swimming, the cancer. How did that all come about?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

So that um that came about. I met somebody at the crypt, and occasionally, if people were from, you know, especially if they were not from, say, even the US or they were from other countries. I mean, I met people from all around the world. Um, the crypt really is a destination for people. And I would say, in the, you know, in the later years, I would say, so I worked on the project for six years. Wow. It's a really, really long time. And um, and I would ask people, so if you are a photographer, you know, where would you want to go? Kind of thing. And I had one person say, Well, I've never seen it, but I've heard that in Australia they dress as her and raise money for cancer. And I was like, What? How is that? Like, I couldn't even imagine how that was possible. Just I didn't, I didn't know of any link that she had to cancer. But then, you know, doing some research, I did find the woman who had started the swim. And the swim was founded when um Sarah, when she lost her mother to cancer. And it was like maybe the next year or that year, I don't remember the timing, but she had recently lost her mother to cancer. She was talking to friends in a restaurant, and it was sort of this, you know, my my goodness, it's so wrong that mom is gone. And I don't remember exactly what how she explained it, but it was along these lines. And it was, you know, we've got to do something. What could we do? Let's raise money for this. Well, what could we do? And they came up with this idea that we'll swim as Marilyn Monroe, dressed in the ocean. People would give us money to do that. And, you know, wait, Marilyn? Wait, why Marilyn? And it was this idea for them. It's a very strong theme of body positivity, feeling good in your body, all these changes are happening to it. Marilyn felt good in her body. She was curvy. We've got all these changes happening. She overcame so much. Look what all the things she overcame in her life. We can overcome cancer. And she became this symbol. So I got a visa and went to Australia shortly after having a call with the founder. And she told me that over 500 people were going to be going into the ocean. And they're men and women and children. And that group, actually, some of that group is the cover of the book. Um, and you know, they said she's a symbol of hope, right? And I just thought, my gosh, that is so beautiful. And it really, the theme of a symbol of hope runs through the entire book and how people relate to her. So a lot of people will see the image on the cover and they'll say, Oh, you went to you know, a Maryland convention and people are playing dress up. No, that's not what this is, right? There's a much deeper reason that people are dressing as her. And in that, in the case of Australia, that is something they do once a year, right? They're not wandering around on the street dressed as Marilyn and doing that and you know, hiring themselves out at parties to be Marilyn. Um, there are people who do that, and that's a wonderful thing too, keeps her memory alive. This particular group, they all have a tie to cancer, whether they personally have cancer, they're swimming because they lost a loved one, or a friend has cancer, a family member, they all have some tie to cancer, but it's men, it's women, it's children, it's everybody. And the idea is that everybody can be a Maryland. You know, they call themselves the Marylands, and um it's it's actually very, very beautiful. And I went into cancer hospitals with people who are um who had connections to the swim. I photographed in there. There could be a whole other book about that uh at some point. Maybe there will be, who knows? But, you know, I really wanted to have the behind the story behind why they're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I think that a lot of people, you know, photographers, you get helicopter in. There's gonna be a lot of Marylands. You will get a an image of a lot of Marylands if you show up, right? But I felt very strongly about having their stories and their words about why they are swimming like this. And um, so that that part is very special. That whole section is dedicated in memory of Maria Welty, who is one of the subjects, I shouldn't say subjects, but you know, one of the people that was photographed in the book. And she has died. And, you know, she was quite ill when I photographed her. She was so lovely. Her daughter was swimming uh as one of the Marylands, and they go in teams, right? So the people in this car are one team, and you know, they have these fundraising groups, much like you do for a you know, walk-a-thon or any kind of a marathon. So um, but you know, Nina, Nina and her team are featured in the book, and so it's it's got that that side too. So I I um I felt very strongly about including like the why, you know, why do people love her? And that's what this is about.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

That's very nice. Very nice. One quote that you actually put in there at the end of the book, which was from Marilyn that said, What I really want to say is that the whole world needs is a real feeling of kinship, kinship. We are all brothers. I mean, I'm shortening it, but I think that that statement, especially nowadays, is more profound than anything because I think we are so isolated and separated with the internet. As much as the internet has brought us together, I think in a way it has separated us too.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

It's very true. You know, and when you look at just pictures of I've seen, you know, photographer friends will send me pictures of like, here's Times Square. And back in the day, it's like everybody with each other and standing on this corner and that corner chatting, right? Now everybody's looking down on their phones, yeah, and they're not looking at each other. And um it it's it's true, and it's social media and likes and follows and friends, and that's really something else. And um this is yeah, I I like to keep things real. I'm not a big social media person. I need to become more of one now that I have a book, but but I I I feel the same way. It is, it's it is very separate. And that that quote actually, you know, I I found it in um uh it's in Gloria Steinem mentions it and also Ms. Magazine, and and just you know, researching to include that quote, because I felt like, you know, uh according it, so according to her press sec, her friend and press secretary, Pat Newcomb, is that Marilyn had said this during an interview um shortly before she died. I don't know exactly which interview it is, but and she had begged the reporter to include it, and it hadn't made it into the final article. And that is how I came to know about the quote, and is through the Patricia Newcomb um statements. And so I just thought, my gosh, she didn't, she didn't get to say that. Well, I'm gonna give her the last word in my book, you know, like let it let it be that, because I do feel that, you know, everybody just it's so important that we all come together and just be one. And um, and that's what hope is all about, right? Everybody, everybody wants hope. Everybody wants to be hopeful, right? People who are going through mental health challenges, depression, cancer, and any any challenge, you want to have hope that somehow you're gonna get through it. And we all share that, regardless of what our what our politics are, what our views are, what are all of our the differences that we might have. And um, it is about coming together. And I think that Marilyn, so many people would tell me that she they found her to be so inclusive, right? They they felt like if if there's a story in the book that's uh it's about a woman who she's actually purchased a crypt near Maryland, even though she lives even though she lives in England. And I like, wait, what? You know, and I and I photographed that happening, right? And I and I I said, well, why? And she said, Well, I always felt like the black sheep of the family. Um, I didn't know why until later on. And then I came out to my mother, and my mother didn't speak with me. Her mother was born the same year that Marilyn was born, and that that hurt her very much. But she saw Marilyn being friends with, you know, whether it was gay people, black people, people of all types, which we might not think about that as much today as being remarkable. But for a star in the 50s and the early 60s, that is is really, you know, the Ella Fitzgerald uh interview talks about where she says Marilyn was a little ahead of her time and she didn't know it. And I think that that's really beautiful because it's just, you know, love. It's love is love. Let's let's be good to each other. And um, I think that's a beautiful theme.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

And it's a theme that unfortunately we have diminished somewhat in in our current time, which is sad. Um, one thing that also another story that was great was Roger's story about his aunt, Jackie Green, that Marilyn, what Marilyn did for her, and you know I I think it's an important story. So if you would elaborate just a little bit, because I know you don't want to give everything away with a book.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Oh, sure. So this was a gentleman I met at the crypt, and this is one of the things that I think uh for me really um just the experience of being at the crypt, and people would walk up and then, you know, they would speak to me, right? I would be well off to the side, but but I would eventually speak to the visitors and he dropped off hot sauce. And I had not seen anybody do that before. And so I asked him, I'm like, oh, I, you know, you you dropped off this hot sauce. And well, yes, it's because, you know, she was so kind to my aunt. And he told me that his aunt had been a seamstress for Maryland, and that Marilyn, you know, had hired her. She'd met her on a movie set, I can't remember the exact place, but but would hire her and that she would ask his aunt to, you know, to do things. You know, can you make this dress? Can you do this, do that, fix this? And so she would go over to Marilyn, where Marilyn was, and that he said that Marilyn had bought her a car so that she could go back and forth and that she, you know, gave money to people in the community, and that, you know, people didn't want so, so this gentleman, you know, he's he's telling this and and saying, you know, that his aunt is is black, right? So um, and just this kindness that she showed to his family, and that his aunt made Marilyn hot hot, you know, chicken, fried chicken with and she loved it with hot sauce. And what? Like, who knew? Right. And and I think, you know, these stories are just really beautiful and um people's memories of her. You have you know, George Shakiris talking about working with Marilyn on set and how she was such a hard worker and different, you know, different ways that people remember. Either they knew her personally, she impacted their family, or you know, how she what she means to them today. But um, but I I love that story also. The the Roger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

And the other, you know, it was interesting to me that people put notes into the crypt. And I'm thinking, how much how many notes go in that crypt before?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

You know, and I it would be thousands, right? I I don't even know how that is happening, but that I see it happen. I mean, there's a crack in the in the marble or the granite, and and and paper goes in. Paper goes in, it it does, and people write her notes and drop them off and put them in there. They they also leave them at the base of the crypt. There are pages in the book that show so I mean, I went through thousands of images at the crypt, literally, and to decide, okay, what you know, which things represent, you know, what goes on there. And um it it's just it. There is no there's no end, I feel. Like she really is forever. Like it's it's this infinite number of ways that people think of. I mean, there's there's the flowers, there's the notes, there's balloons, there's those things that you would perhaps expect. It is it is pretty remarkable, although the spreads of of things that end up there. Um, I remember one day a guy put like a toy car there, or put another person put a cigarette there. She didn't smoke, but these like leaves of cigarette. Um, just just these ways that people relate to her. And um I think it's I think it's beautiful. I I I can't even imagine what she would think, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

I think she'd be overwhelmed a little bit because I mean, such an outpouring of love when she didn't have that necessarily in her real life, her everyday life. Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

It's it's really something.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

I do want to touch on something though, because this is gonna change gears very much because you also did a photograph or a session about the last Holocaust survivor of Torchbond Poland. Yeah, truck and broad Poland, yes, and then you know, besides going through being there for three years, taking in foraging for food for for 16 other people that had escaped, she ends up losing her son.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yes, yes. So um, that is Betty Gold, and Betty Gold was um, she's very special to me. She has since passed away, but um she was living as a child in a tiny village, it was 5,000 people, and it was called Truckenbroad, and it was in Poland, and all but I think one person in town pretty much were Jewish, and at a certain point the Nazis stormed the village and they murdered all but 33, just gone. And she was 11, I think, at the time that the Nazis stormed the village, and she escaped by running under, you know, a soldier's um, a soldier's leg. She was she's very pet she's very petite. As even as an adult, she was petite. So she must have been a very petite child. And her father had thought, you know, there might be something to this. He's hearing about the Nazis, you know, what if it's real? Because she told me, like, we didn't, we didn't think, we thought they're not coming for us. Like, we're not doing anything. We're just in this little village, this little peaceful village. And she lived with a small group of like 16 people in like caves and swamps for more than three years in the winters. And it would be Betty who would go and forage for food because uh the boys in the family they were circumcised. And if they got stopped, they could know that they were Jewish. But Betty could she would go into the fields and get whatever food she could, and I don't know what in the world she was getting. I can't remember what she told me in the winter, but they didn't even know if the world war was over. They three and a half years in a swamp in the winter, like what?

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Um, and she then later survived that. They got put in a, I forgot the name of a camp. Um, it was it was after they were it was liberated, but then people went into camps, right? So um, but she came to to Cleveland, Ohio, that area. And she got married and had a had a life, and her husband had passed away. And what I'm when I met her, she so she had three sons. And when I met her, two of her three sons had died within like the last year or two. And one was to an acute medical condition very suddenly and unexpectedly, and the other was um was by suicide. And she told me about him. Um she told me about him, and she had not told other people that that is how he died. She shared that with me, and she she totally said, You can tell my story, you know, that she was she trusted me, and so my telling it today is very much with her blessing. Um, but she said that that was really like a whole other Holocaust for her. And she had been out at like the grocery store, she's normally home, and she was in her 80s when he when he died. And she was out at the grocery store and she came home and there was a message on his answering on her answering machine. And so it would haunt her. Like, had she been home, would things have been different if she had been able to pick up the phone, right? We don't know, but that is how the you know, how things evolve for her is this what if, you know, I'm his mother. He did call me. Surely I could have talked him out of it, right? Because he did call her thinking she would be home, because she normally would be home. But, you know, we will we won't ever know. But but she, you know, I I ended up, I photographed her over many, many days. We got to know each other, and there were a few days where I photographed her getting ready for her day in her bedroom, and I saw over under the window this telephone answering machine back when we had answering machines and they were a little thing, right? And it was odd because it wasn't like it was next to the bed, it was just under the window, it was plugged in. It was kind of an odd place for a phone, but I didn't think of anything of it. And then she confided that that answering machine had Alan's last message. And um that was a whole other thing, you know. And I said, Betty, gosh, it was the type of machine that if you unplugged it, it could erase the message. And I asked her, like, do you, you know, do you want me? I could leave my tape recorder, you can make a tape of it. I don't have to listen to it, but make a CD. And there's there's a whole story about that. I don't know what our time is like, but I could certainly tell you that story. But it was really um very, very touching, and she's very special. She's on my business card, she's always on my website. She became like my grandmother. She's one of my very first photo stories, and she's was a remarkable lady, and um was such an honor to to photograph her and document her story.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Suicide is one of those things that you do reflect back and go, could I have done something different? Um, and in fact, before I started interviewing you, a friend called me to tell me that another friend uh stepson had committed suicide yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Um, but I mean I've gone through my mom did it, and it is one of those things where you question for a long time, what if? And m my grandmother's experience was different than mine because this was her daughter. And it's it's always something I think anybody that has experienced it, even the other aspects of death, you can still question it and going, was there something I could have done differently? Was there something I could have fixed? And that kind of brings us back to Marilyn because you know they say why did she do it? Why did she commit suicide? That you know, because that's the narrative. But who's to say? You know, she still had a lot of life in her, but she also had some trouble. The other the other aspect I wanted to touch on too is living rough. I mean, you you have a knack for taking people to get an emotional photograph, whether it be living rough or the uh the horse race. I look through your your portfolio, and I mean you have a natural knack for getting the the feel for people in your photographs.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Thank you. It's um, you know, it's the part of photography that I that I really I would say really love the most is getting to know people and going back and get having a longer term look at something. I think it's it's there are photographs I've made where I've gone out and and maybe I've made the picture in a day, right? And okay, I I got something that even subsequent days I got to know them better, but I still like the one from the first day. But I do love telling the story behind the story. And um that I feel has become kind of my calling card or my more specialty. I don't know. I'm I'm not somebody, yes, I can photograph a horse race with a long lens, right? You know, when you think about sports, normally you think about sports photography, you know, people, you're not interviewing the quarterback of the football game, right? It's all the photographers on the sidelines and they've got long lenses. Like, you know, that's a certain skill, and it's incredible that they do that. I can do, you know, let's say the horse racing photography with the long lens, but um, the story that you're referring to, I'm pretty sure, well, there's a couple on my site, but is about California Chrome. I had a friend who was very ill. This part is not on my website. Um, she had ALS. She was like a big sister to me, and she loved horses. And we would communicate with each other, like sending you know a photo a day. She that was back when you remember when the iPad was like, Oh, we can take a picture, right? You can take a picture on your iPad. So Cindy would send me a picture on the iPad, and she was no longer able to speak, and she couldn't really type much, but she could just push the button and I would see whatever she saw. She lived a few hours away, and I would send her a picture. So we would do that back and forth. She absolutely loved horses. She had a horse, she rode horses. Um, and I thought at one point I was like, okay, these flowers, birds, sunsets, you know, they're fine, but like I gotta up my game for Cindy, right? I got to go some other places. So I was like, well, where am I gonna get a horse in Los Angeles? And I called a local racetrack only to find out that they were closing that weekend. So I went out to the racetrack, and there's like the lady, it was so funny. The lady, so she was in the press office, she gave me a credential, and it was a it was a pin. She's like, Oh, I'm out of the regular pins or whatever. And she gave me this credential. I didn't know what it was. Like I just put it, I just wore it where she said, and I thought that it would like come with instruction, like like where you can stand. I had never been to a horse race before, much less photographed one, right? And I met this lovely gentleman um in the in the press box, because I I must have looked so clueless again. That's the story of my life, right? And and I'm looking around and he says, Hey kid, do you know where you're going? And I said, Actually, sir, I haven't got a clue. Like, I'm not, I mean, I'm so honest, you know. I'm just like, no, I don't know. He says, Well, if I was you, I would look for the oldest, crustiest looking fellow and see if he'll show you around. And I just put my hand on his shoulder and I said, Would that be you, sir? And he said, Come on, kid, we got work to do. And he took me out back behind this is Hollywood Park racetrack, right? This very, very famous racetrack, and they were closing. And now that's where SoFi Stadium is today, where the World Cup's gonna be. But back then it was Hollywood Park racetrack. And this is about uh 12, 13 years ago, I'd say. And and you know, he said, Well, we've we've got cowbreads, California bred horses, and you know, keep an eye on our cowbreads, they do really well. You know, one day we're gonna get to the derby, one day, or we're gonna win the derby, maybe it was, you know, and just that was he was always pulling for the California horses. He said, Go out to the paddock. You that's where the two-year-olds are, and you know, they could become somebody. So the next day I went back, they're closing, right? And I had my list that Bill had given me. I go out to the paddock, I photograph. There was at that time I made the mistake that yes, I had pictures of horses, but I was so I'm so much a people photographer that I was really, really focusing on the people and what was their vibe with an animal. And there was this one group that I was just really moved by, just they were so gentle with this horse. And I I was the only photograph, a photographer back in the back in the paddock, and I'm photographing them just putting saddles on this little two-year-old horse. Everybody else is waiting for the final race because that was the story, right? The last race at Hollywood Park. I was practicing because I never photographed a horse race before. And and Bill had said, you gotta watch your settings because we're at night, and there's, you know, you you can't set your exposure just based on the night because when they cross the finish line, that's the shot you want, but a big light's gonna flash. So your camera has to be ready for that. So I was practicing on the races before. So I'm there on the race just before the last race. All the other media is up eating the steaks in the press box. They gave us like really good food on the last day. So they're all up eating, and I'm out of the paddock, like practicing with my camera. So I go out, I photograph this horse, and I get this shot. I didn't even realize that it was the same horse at the time, right? That I had photographed before. Because I didn't know how I didn't know how anything worked. Anyway, so the horse comes and he's like, I don't know, five, seven lengths ahead. And I thought it was a boring shot because I I was expecting like I wanted a race shot, like with all of them like babbling it out. And this is just like one guy, like one horse looks like a walk in the park. And you know, the jockey, I'm the only photographer there besides the track photographer, and he comes running up and he comes running right up to me, and he's like pumping his fists. Well, that jockey was Victor Espinosa, right? Who now is a Hall of Fame jockey. He was not Hall of Fame at the time, but that was a two-year-old horse, right? Who was very unknown. And I then talked to them, um, you know, go to the go to the track and was looking at other horses, and somebody said, you know, I really needed to just pick a horse. So I got in touch with these guys and they said, Yes, you can photograph it. I go to the wrong track. They're not even at Santa Neither at another track that isn't, it's like not like the the the really sexy track, right? And I go there and I'm photographing this horse, and I call Bill up and I said, Hey, Bill, I got the Derby horse. He says, What? What are you talking about? I said, Yeah, yeah, I picked him. He says, Who'd you pick? And I tell him, he says, Hey, kid, the chance of that horse winning the Kentucky Derby is about as good as the chance of you winning it. And I and I'm like, but they believe, they believe. He's like, they all believe, you know, they all believe. And so off, you know, off I go. Well, that horse did go to win the Kentucky Derby. He got into the Kentucky Derby, he wins a million-dollar race, right? And and you know, I'm on the triple crown trail with this horse. And um, but I had like I probably have the largest, I would have, the largest collection of of you know, pre-fame of this of this horse. I have the pictures from when he was an unknown two-year-old. And I just went along with it. I'm like, let's all believe, we'll all go to the derby. It was crazy. So um it's definitely I I found myself just in situations. I go wherever I feel like the story, where there is a story. And in this case, it really started out. A lot of my stories start out as presents for other people. This was this was um, this one started out definitely as a present for my friend Cindy. And she was, you know, like I say, she was very, very ill with with ALS, and but she loved like seeing horse racing through his eyes. So I was like the reporter for Cindy, um, for imagining how it was going to play it out the way it did.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

How do you feel about AI, gener, not AI, generative AI, being a creative, being a photographer? How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

I feel like it's it it it it it must have its place. It's here, it's not going anywhere. I would like to believe that people will still support things that are real that came from a human. Um but it it's a challenge. And I, you know, I happened to run into it was a it was a group of kids in a restaurant a couple months ago, and they wanted me to take a picture of them, right? So I did. And then I happen to be wearing a shirt, uh, a Nikon shirt, right? And I like, oh, are you a photographer? I said, Yeah, actually I am. Oh, what do you photograph? I said, Well, I'm, you know, I've done this work, this piece, it's a National Geographic, and I show, well, can we see it? And I pull that up. And actually one of them was the one of the the big foot um in the statue, right? And this woman says, How did you edit that? And I said, Wait, what what do you mean? And she wanted to know like how I had compiled it, right? I said, Oh no, no, no, no, that's real. And they they were very lovely. They they just it never dawned on them that my photos might be real, and that scared me.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

Um, because I said, Oh no, no, they're all real. And then they saw the shot with so many Marylands, right? You know, hundreds of Marylands. Wait, these are real people? I said, Yes, they're real people. It's a real photograph. And she says, Oh, you should get extra credit for that. And she was she was very, very nice. I mean, it was a very friendly exchange, but I was blown away that they had no expectation that my work would be real. So it it's I'm afraid of it changing the narrative around photography and what is the truth. You know, for somebody like me to be out there documenting this, I mean, I do it on my own time. I don't have a benefactor. I don't the days of people just being on staff and journalism, oh, you're on a staff and you've got benefits and all this stuff, right? Those days are over. There are very, very few photographers that have staff positions. There's hardly any staff positions left. National Geographic doesn't have staff photographers. They haven't had for years. Sports Illustrated does not. I mean, that's shocking. And there are many newspapers who no longer have staff photographers. And so uh that you know, that's a separate issue from AI. I'd like to believe that these these newspapers, I'm not saying that these newspapers will replace with AI. I hope that they won't. Um, the ethics in journalism don't support that. It's gotta be real. But somebody's gotta support us because we're not we're not gonna be here. There won't be people, you know, if everybody thinks that they are a photographer because they, you know, pushed a button on their iPhone and it looks pretty good on a three-inch screen, right? And and you can get pretty far with an iPhone. I mean, I always say it's it's not the it's the per the person takes the picture, not the not the equipment, right? If I if I came to your house for dinner, Donna, and you said and I said, Oh, this dinner is delicious, you must have a really good frying pan.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

You know, I uh it isn't that, but I think that AI is um I'm more afraid of it for people's perception, you know, and what is what is the truth. Because if you can just push a button, and I haven't even tried to do it, and if I did do it, probably get my own work, has been trained on it. Um, but you know, I put 500 Marylands in AI. I wonder what picture I would get of not doing it. But I'm just no I but but it's it's like it's it it is it is scary. I'm I'm more afraid for you know what is the future of us. We're of photographers, right? We're dying breed. There's nothing supporting us.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

It it's not just photography, though. I mean, it it bleeds out to music. It's uh recently, because I am an author, you know, some of the bigger publishing houses are saying, well, you know what, we're gonna get rid of the um we're gonna get rid of the editors and stuff and just have AI do it. And you know, we have people that are like, I always wanted to write a book, and now with Chat GPT, I can do that. You're not a writer, you're a prompter. You are prompting, just like that's a really good phrase.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

You're a prompter, you're not a writer.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

And it it's hard because you, whether it be your photography or me writing a book, I put my heart and soul in it. I mean, even I have the option with the podcast. They're like, oh, we can offer you an AI co-host. Why? I don't I don't want an AI co-host. I I and there are AI podcasts. You know, it's like you lose the human element, and that's the thing. You can create, and I I had an author actually hire me as an editor who used she swore she didn't, but she left prompts, and I didn't recognize it at the time because I had never dealt with it. I had another person accused me. Tell me, do you realize? Are authors using this? And I'm like, what? I never used it. But yeah, there were prompts left in the work. And she wanted me to basically fix this for her to make it more human. And that was the thing. That the the story itself was lacking humanity. And when we take humanity out, we lose empathy and other things. And once again, there's the great divide. And you always have to wonder why do they want us divided? So I think, yeah, maybe maybe it's here to stay, but I think it needs guardrails. And I think we need to look at it because not only is it affecting the creative creative people, it's going to start affecting everybody. And who what are we going to do for work? You know? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

No, we've got so much that's automated. I mean, in LA, what we have, you know, all these self-driving cars, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

I'm like, they're everywhere. Oh, but did you hear about the way moved debacle in Georgia where there was like 30 that went to a subdivision and got stuck there?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

Oh no.

unknown 1:07:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

They were like going there every day, and then suddenly somebody like put a fake, you know, one of those plastic kid things warnings, so don't, you know, kids at play. And they got confused. They didn't know what to do, so they all kind of got stuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

Oh my goodness, I had not heard that. But it's uh it's a thing, you know, or the automated self-checkouts and the you know, I it's so much is automated and and it's what we have, but I just have to believe that you know that some of us will keep going somehow. You know, we will always be out there telling the stories, telling the truth, and and and showing documenting what's really happening in the world. As long as we have hope. There you go. As long as we have hope.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

It's true. It's true. So one last question about the book. Did you decide to put it out this year because it is Marilyn's 100th birthday?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

So that was um that was that was part of it. Um, you know, it seemed like a very natural time. And and it's also I had I had been working on it six years, right? So, so it felt like, okay, it's naturally gotten to the point where it is a book. The first couple of years, it was like, okay, oh, I I can do more. Then I really got something that I felt represented, you know, what what the project is all about. I don't know that I'll ever really be finished with it, but this is this is where it is now. So um, so yeah, I'm really, really thrilled that it that it is a book. And um yeah, it's been really an honor. All the people that shared their stories with me, you know, is is very, very touching and and generous of all of them to be so open. You know, I think virtually everyone I asked told me their story. And um, you know, if I if I to include everyone, we would have ended up with like a stack of books, right? Yeah you know, but uh I feel like the stories that that are there really represent a very, very good cross-section of of the ways and the why of of people relating to Maryland, which has not ever been done before. You know, there are hundreds of titles about Maryland. Um there are a lot of rumors, a lot of this, a lot of that. And I I'm no way an expert on Maryland books or Maryland any anything. Um what what makes this so different is that there has never been a book talking about what is her legacy and and what are the ways that and reasons that people love her. And that is is a very different, different take. And so I'm excited about that because while there are, you know, people say, well, there's a lot of Maryland books this year, I'm like, right, they're about Marilyn with images that for the most part, right, we have have seen before or are known, or they're outtakes from whatever setting or session it might have been or whatever, but this is all original work. This is all current, this is this is today, and I'm only reporting first person. Right. Right. There, so it's this person's truth. Right. I the last thing I want to do is become a rumor spreader. If there's anything about Marilyn in the book that somebody said as a fact, I fact checked it, you know, as best I could. And and it is it is known that yes, that is true. Like when it was, you know, the her helping elephant's jerk, let's say, okay, that story, I did research it to make sure, right? To make sure it's true. But but really, this is this is people telling their truths. And so you get a view of Marilyn that has other dimensions from what else is going to be out there for her hundredth, right? There will be shows, there will be other events happening. They will all be or are all centered on her her life, her movie career, things that happened, and everything ends in 1962. There is nothing out there that is since then. You know, who is she today? So this doesn't leave her, you know, in the 50s. It it it it makes her it it may I feel like it brings her to life through people today.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:53

You never know. Um, somebody, I think I have an actual old tabloid that somebody gave me of there were like I think Marilyn was supposedly in her 80s at that point, and she was living on a farm, so they updated this photo photo. It was like the news or something, it was really bad. But oh wow, yeah, that it was one of it was like Elvis sighting, except it's Marilyn. And it was from that time or when it was from the 80s, they were saying she was still alive, and yeah. Now I will say this this book here, there there is some salacious stuff, but the creepiest thing that's in this book is allegedly a photo of her autopsy. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's there's such a treasure trove, and yeah, you're gonna see more of it. I mean, I wouldn't doubt that somebody brings out again her last film. They they made a documentary of that not too long ago. Well, actually, I guess it's about 20 years ago now, but everybody's going to try to cash in a little bit on this. And I'm not saying you're doing that because you're bringing humanity to it, you're not just rehashing the same stories. And I'm sorry if I mention any any windows about her death, but there it's always speculation, and we're never gonna know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

So it's interesting. Um, you know, one of the very first days um I met a group of um, you know, Marilyn devotees, let's call them, and one of them just said, you know, regarding her death, you know, you're doing this reporting. I'll just say, regarding her death, you're never gonna know, and it's too late, you know? And we have what she left us, we have her movies, we have her films, we have what she did in the world, and we focus on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:35

And that's the way it's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

And yeah, and I I you know, just I go back to like I'm a journalist, right? So, so I did not and will not ever purposefully publish something that is a rumor. Good. That's not fair, that's not that's not who I am. I'm not gonna be that. Just no. Um, these were beautiful stories, and um this is this is really lovely. And I don't think people know this about Marilyn. Your average person, like when I would tell them, Oh, yeah, I you know, I have a Marilyn project, oh yeah, Marilyn Monroe, like is if they already knew what the project was about. They had no idea. And then I showed them like some of the pieces and some of the some of the interviews, and they're like, oh, wait, this is a whole different thing. I'm like, right, it is. This isn't me getting some photo of her and saying it's the last something or the unseen. This is just a very, very different. This is my photography reporting on people today and how they love her. So it's it isn't like the other book. So it's like it's a tricky thing. So it's yes, it's coming out during this time period. She'll be a hundred all year, but she's forever, right? The book it it's just uh the book is here, but it you know, it's nice that it is in time for the hundredth, but it's I think it's something that will be added to also as years go on.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Well, and also you're you know, there's children in the book. There's children that their parents have passed on the legacy to them. And I think that's how her legacy will continue to to thrive.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:15

That's a very good point. You know, I hadn't yeah, I mean, of course that makes perfect sense. There are you're right, there are children in the book, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

And um I mean, even if even if they don't pursue dressing up, there's gonna be images of them as a child. And if they have children and then it's continuing on going, mom, why were you looking like this? Why did you dress like this? And there goes this whole story, started all over again.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:41

Right. It's true. And I think that the Marilyn, that's another thing. Like, if if Marilyn can be seen for the person that she was, you know, she was a businesswoman. She was really intelligent. When she died, there were over over, if I understand it, more than 400 books or hundreds of books of classic literature in her collection. Um, you know, one of the images that is in the book that that I did license is of Marilyn reading. And she's got classical music albums on the floor, and it's it's it's it's her always bettering herself. And I think that that is a really lovely and healthy way to look at her as a complete person, as opposed to here's the blonde bombshell, she's in her movies, isn't she pretty? And we're done, and she's on a coffee mug, right? Like I don't know. I feel like that's maybe not as I don't want to say it's not fair. I don't want to criticize any. I mean, I'm not directing it any, there's no book I'm directing it or any any way, but I think that that is a fairly one-dimensional view of her that could continue to get put forward. And this offers a different view of her.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

You posed a question and I it popped in my head, I got an answer for you about what would she think of this? And when you think about something about Marilyn, she always wanted to be a mother. In a roundabout way, she is ending up nurturing and mothering these people that you've you've posted in the you put in a book. She has become, I don't want to say she's their surrogate mother, but in a roundabout way, at certain times, she has been a mother to people that maybe didn't have a mom.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

Very much. I've had people tell me things along those lines exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

So if you if you told her that, then I think she'd be very pleased. So is there anything that we didn't talk about that you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

I I I can't think of of anything. Um you know, uh I'm happy if people write me. Um so it's info at amygaskin.com. Is my email. And um I didn't put my name. I don't think my name is oh, I guess you'll have my name on the screen.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:01

Your name is right there on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

Somewhere oh, right, you're right. It is. So yeah, so um you can write me through my website if anybody has any questions or if you have a Maryland story that you want to share, um, that'd be great. Um, the book, of course, is available uh on my website. And um yeah, we've got a year of her hundredth anniversary, and I think she'll be in the news a lot. And uh but but definitely, especially if somebody's got if you're out there and you have a Maryland story that you'd like to share, uh always happy to hear that and know about it. And I'm just so grateful to you, Donna. This is a remarkable um interview and and really grateful to you for putting this together. Thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:45

Amy and I had a fun conversation, and I think there is a bigger thing to talk about when it comes to Maryland. Because, like I said on the podcast, we had back in the 80s, you know, wherever you went, you saw images of Marilyn. And I'm not talking in Hollywood. In Hollywood, you would expect it. But you could go to the mall and you would see Maryland posters. I mean, I had a I still have it actually. I still have some of the Maryland posters. Um, but you would see these posters hanging up with Marilyn, you would see James Dean and Elvis, but the legacy of Marilyn, maybe because she was the female of the group, was so much bigger than most. And it's interesting, you know. I we I would go shopping like at used bookstores and and grab books and you know, find old magazines. These are just some of the things I have, and I have some picture books and stuff, but it meant a lot to me. And one of my prized possessions that's packed away is a book, uh photo book of the Seven Year Itch. It's all little shots of the Seven Year Itch, like it was a photo journal. And I remember I picked it up for like I think it was 75 cents. And it was just like the biggest fine, and I was so thrilled because at that time Marilyn was this enigma for me. She was somebody that she was famous, she she aspired to be larger than life. And sure, I wanted to be an actress, I wanted to be a musician, I wanted to be that person. But there was something else to it. It's like she was the underdog, and I understood what it was like to be the underdog. I knew what that feeling was like. And I knew how hard it was and what she had to go through to make sure she could survive. And there were certain aspects of my life that I had to survive, maybe not as drastic as hers, but there were certain aspects and certain things I went through. She had a mother that was unstable. I related to that because at this point, when I kind of fell into liking Marilyn, my mom, I had already saved her once. She was playing this game of going back and forth of, I'm gonna kill myself, I'm gonna be fine, I'm gonna kill myself, everything's good. And so constantly dealing with that, it was like I related to Marilyn for having to deal with that. Granted, she got, she unfortunately was put in foster care, but she got out. I was older, but I still understood what it was like to have a mother that you didn't know how to read the room because one minute she could be very nurturing, the next minute she could be, you know, get away from me. So there's that image. And then, yes, yeah, I went through the blonde phase. You know, I dyed my hair blonde because I was embracing Marilyn. I was embracing my inner Marilyn. But I think that there is some strength in there. You know what she went through, you know the trials and the tribulations she went through, yet she still survived and she was smart. You know, I and as we kind of ended it, we didn't talk about scandal. And I don't want to talk about scandal here because you can, as somebody said, and as she said, as Amy said to, you know, the person said to her, we're never gonna know the truth. And sure, there's speculation, and but we're never gonna know the truth. So what we have to do is accept the work that she did and understand how smart she was, and understand that some of the stories you hear may or may not be true. But the thing about anybody, we all know each other differently. And so while some there may be some stories that she didn't have a great work ethic, and there's other stories that she was fabulous at her work ethic, it all is per a person's perception, how they perceived her and how she may have been what she may have been going through at that moment in her life. And I'm not spreading any innuendos. All I'm saying is our perceptions of each person, and the reason why Marilyn means something to somebody in so many different ways is because of our perception of her, how she calls to us, how she fulfills us, what what is lacking, you know. And I think as we were talking, that's when that whole thing came about of well, what would Marilyn think? I think she would feel like she has mothered all these people. And that was one of her things that she didn't get to do. She didn't get to be a mother. So I think it's wonderful that somebody is documented. I think Amy's documentation of the humanity, of I don't want to say the ideology, but of the love of an idol, the love of a person that keeps them going. I mean, yeah, I can't tell you. One of the things when I took my trip to Los Angeles was I'm going to Hollywood, I'm putting my hands in the cement. Even though I hadn't really been a big fan, still, I wasn't, you know, collecting it anymore. I still had to do that. I still had to put my feet in her footprints. I still had to put my hands in the handprints. I didn't go to the cemetery, but I wanted to touch where she had touched. It was, it was one of those things. The other person that was a big one for me was Shirley McClain. Because as a kid, that's what I wanted. I wanted to be Shirley McLean. She was an actress, a dancer, uh, a singer. And the funny thing is, as some of you guys know, I read cards. So, in a roundabout way, because I embraced the woo or the ph metaphysical, I kind of did become Shirley McLean because I embraced that stuff. But I digress. So I think if you can check out the book, I think it has a lot of compassion, a lot of heart. And I think it's something that you could really relate to if you're a Maryland fan. Because we all have this journey with her. And for whatever reason, she connects with us. And going back to that quote, we all need some kind of kinship. And if Marilyn gives you kinship with others, then that's what matters. Having that community, especially now when we all feel so isolated at times, um, because of social media. It's an important thing. And I think that that statement is ahead of our times, even though it was not included in a book or a movie, or not a movie, but a magazine. I think she was more than a movie actress. And I think that we need to try to embrace the connection between us. We all the hate in the world, all the division is not good for any of us. And I think that if we embrace connection, positive energy, then maybe, just maybe we can keep going. Because the key to this is having hope. And right now the world needs a lot of hope. So check the book out if you can. And embrace life, embrace each day and have hope that it's gonna get better, because it will, it may not be right away, but always have hope because hope keeps you going. And understand that as long as you have hope, no matter how hard something gets, you can move through it. And we've all had those moments where we may not have much hope. And if that's the case, then find somebody to reach out to. Some would say Marilyn didn't have any hope at the end. But she was full of life. So don't give up hope. Think about life. Think about joy. Yes, the struggle is real. There's a lot of struggling right now. But if we come together as a group, as a unit, as people that want compassion and humanity and love and and and peace, we'll make it through. Because love wins. It always does. It may have a hard time for a bit, but love always eventually wins. So call me naive if you want. But try to hang on to hope. On that note, I'd like to thank Amy for coming on the podcast. You can find her book. I have a link in the show notes. And um, I thank you guys for tuning in. Whether you're listening morning, noon, or night, I always appreciate you. And I'd like to thank Fast Susie for the intro and outro music. So on that note, guys, I will catch you next time. Bye.